<div dir="ltr">Hi Zbigniew,<div><br></div><div>agree but first step is always doing inventory of current channels.</div><div><br></div><div>There's already a plethora of mailing-lists, facebook groups, ppi work groups etc </div>
<div><br></div><div>Several of which have tried doing part of what you want. Would be more useful if someone had the possibility of listing all of them and we could start analyzing where they went wrong before we start "yet another" mail list.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Kindly,</div><div>Josef<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><b>International Contact for PPSE</b><br>Contact me for any questions/concerns or if you need to get hold of someone in Piratpartiet or internationally.<div>
<br><div><i>Other contact:</i></div><div>mail: <a href="mailto:international@piratpartiet.se" target="_blank">international@piratpartiet.se</a></div><div>Twitter: @collentine<div>Skype: josef.ohlsson.collentine (only important conversations)</div>
<div>Cel: +46 73 824 9849<span> (text me, if urgent)</span><br></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:22 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net" target="_blank">pp.international.general-request@lists.pirateweb.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Worrying tendency regarding our message board policies<br>
(Antonio Garcia)<br>
2. A consensus experiment as a partial answer to the Pirate<br>
Communication Problem. (Zbigniew ?ukasiak)<br>
3. Re: A consensus experiment as a partial answer to the Pirate<br>
Communication Problem. (Antonio Garcia)<br>
4. Re: [pp-leaders.discussion] Fwd: Still missing 8/11 board<br>
reports from the last PPI board + alternate members (Koen De Voegt)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 10:15:32 +0000<br>
From: Antonio Garcia <<a href="mailto:ningunotro@hotmail.com">ningunotro@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>>, "<a href="mailto:hyazinthe@emailn.de">hyazinthe@emailn.de</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:hyazinthe@emailn.de">hyazinthe@emailn.de</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Worrying tendency regarding our message<br>
board policies<br>
Message-ID: <DUB119-W51F9EC7ACB25BC00CD92F8DC370@phx.gbl><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Too late for that, my dear...<br>
<br>
<a href="http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/" target="_blank">http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 03:01:10 +0200<br>
From: <a href="mailto:evilteddyxl@gmail.com">evilteddyxl@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:hyazinthe@emailn.de">hyazinthe@emailn.de</a>; <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Worrying tendency regarding our message board policies<br>
<br>
Fully agreed and I notice this development too. In The Netherlands there are strong advocates of similar measures, but luckily these measures have not been put into effect yet *officially* (and as such, are not enforced or widely employed at all).<br>
<br>
For me, a pirate party is not about gaining seats or getting into city councils. It is about achieving our ideals. I don't care if that's through getting into legislature bodies through elections, or spreading awareness amongst the people, or through setting up protests. I don't care at all. The core of it always is that we want to have certain ideals be embedded into law and into governmental and economic conduct. There are various ways to do this, none being strongly better than the other. Each have their cons and pros.<br>
<br>
As one of our core ideals is openness, transparancy and such, we should also employ this into the Pirate Party itself. Having no proper public lists is directly in violation of this core principle. If we abandon this core principle, it is a slippery slope which will eventually make us no different than the generic yet another political party.<br>
<br>
There will always be trollls. Just learn to live with the flaming wars or shitstorms they cause periodically. And when worried about leaking abuses of power or such to public lists (I have done so several times, in one case even receiving threats of various magnitudes including a very nice piece of paper filled with threats in legal jargon from the board which i immediatelly consigned to no more value as toilet paper.), the first thing you should consider then that when there are no abuses taking place, they can't be leaked to the public lists (or even for that matter, the press, which is generally even more undesirable).<br>
<br>
Keep in mind that if you don't adhere to core principles, you are bound to fail as a pirate party, since people will eventually see that you are no different than the others. Lets try to prevent that from happening.<br>
<br>
-- RobertoElected member of the Dutch Pirate Party member council.<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 13:07:46 +0200<br>
From: Zbigniew ?ukasiak <<a href="mailto:zzbbyy@gmail.com">zzbbyy@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Subject: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial answer<br>
to the Pirate Communication Problem.<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAGL_UUuzCKi0nFu224bcrbRBnFcZPbZnNO2U3GZdcn1P%2BXYWmA@mail.gmail.com">CAGL_UUuzCKi0nFu224bcrbRBnFcZPbZnNO2U3GZdcn1P+XYWmA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
Copied from the workpad at:<br>
<a href="http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment" target="_blank">http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment</a><br>
<br>
<br>
# Problem (<a href="http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem" target="_blank">http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem</a>)<br>
<br>
There is a severe deficiency of communication between the pirate parties:<br>
<br>
* at the General Assemblies of PPI we don't have enough time to talk<br>
about everything<br>
<br>
* the general mailing list does not work - because lack of rules makes the<br>
discussion chaotic<br>
<br>
* the leaders mailing list and Liquid Feedback setup by Nuno look desert<br>
<br>
* the local forums are often locked down now<br>
<br>
## Proposal 1: consensus deliberative group experiment (zby)<br>
<br>
A consensus based deliberative group (committee?) that would gather opinions<br>
from all pirate parties and work on what is the common core among them.<br>
<br>
It will be immediately useful for:<br>
<br>
* organizing coordinated actions (mostly protests, but also actions<br>
like welcoming Snowden etc.)<br>
<br>
* working on common program core (the European common core program is<br>
very useful for small parties and it should be copied worldwide)<br>
<br>
* making common declarations<br>
<br>
* maybe working on PPI statutes<br>
<br>
After we get it running we can also work on more difficult stuff like<br>
establishing what it really means to be a pirate party.<br>
<br>
### Known issues<br>
<br>
To get there we need to meet two conflicting requirements.<br>
<br>
* The group cannot be too big - so that we can work with the classical<br>
consensus protocol (based on ideas like:<br>
<a href="http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html" target="_blank">http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html</a>),<br>
and it needs to have a well defined boundary (rule #1 in 8 rules for<br>
governance of the commons by Ostrom<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom</a> ). I think the Dunbar<br>
Number that is 120 would make a hard limit.<br>
<br>
* and it needs to include at least participants from all (legitimate)<br>
pirate parties<br>
<br>
### Plan<br>
<br>
All more concrete rules would be established by the group<br>
itself. I believe that if we make good rules we can avoid the problems<br>
that afflict the other communication channels. We can start using emails<br>
and pads - and then choose our own communication infrastructure.<br>
<br>
All this will require some work from all participants - we need<br>
volunteers that can regularly dedicate some of their time to<br>
communicate with the group and with local parties and work on the issues.<br>
<br>
Anyone interested?<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Zbigniew Lukasiak<br>
<a href="http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/</a><br>
<a href="http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 11:14:34 +0000<br>
From: Antonio Garcia <<a href="mailto:ningunotro@hotmail.com">ningunotro@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial<br>
answer to the Pirate Communication Problem.<br>
Message-ID: <DUB119-W2535E309F9739351178594DC370@phx.gbl><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
After <a href="http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/" target="_blank">http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/</a> finally finds a proper and decent solution.<br>
<br>
Before, anything anybody tries will be utterly pointless.<br>
<br>
Because WE all have been playing with ALL our CORE VALUES recklessly... there.<br>
<br>
<br>
Antonio.<br>
<br>
> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 13:07:46 +0200<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:zzbbyy@gmail.com">zzbbyy@gmail.com</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> Subject: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial answer to the Pirate Communication Problem.<br>
><br>
> Copied from the workpad at:<br>
> <a href="http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment" target="_blank">http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> # Problem (<a href="http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem" target="_blank">http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem</a>)<br>
><br>
> There is a severe deficiency of communication between the pirate parties:<br>
><br>
> * at the General Assemblies of PPI we don't have enough time to talk<br>
> about everything<br>
><br>
> * the general mailing list does not work - because lack of rules makes the<br>
> discussion chaotic<br>
><br>
> * the leaders mailing list and Liquid Feedback setup by Nuno look desert<br>
><br>
> * the local forums are often locked down now<br>
><br>
> ## Proposal 1: consensus deliberative group experiment (zby)<br>
><br>
> A consensus based deliberative group (committee?) that would gather opinions<br>
> from all pirate parties and work on what is the common core among them.<br>
><br>
> It will be immediately useful for:<br>
><br>
> * organizing coordinated actions (mostly protests, but also actions<br>
> like welcoming Snowden etc.)<br>
><br>
> * working on common program core (the European common core program is<br>
> very useful for small parties and it should be copied worldwide)<br>
><br>
> * making common declarations<br>
><br>
> * maybe working on PPI statutes<br>
><br>
> After we get it running we can also work on more difficult stuff like<br>
> establishing what it really means to be a pirate party.<br>
><br>
> ### Known issues<br>
><br>
> To get there we need to meet two conflicting requirements.<br>
><br>
> * The group cannot be too big - so that we can work with the classical<br>
> consensus protocol (based on ideas like:<br>
> <a href="http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html" target="_blank">http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html</a>),<br>
> and it needs to have a well defined boundary (rule #1 in 8 rules for<br>
> governance of the commons by Ostrom<br>
> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom</a> ). I think the Dunbar<br>
> Number that is 120 would make a hard limit.<br>
><br>
> * and it needs to include at least participants from all (legitimate)<br>
> pirate parties<br>
><br>
> ### Plan<br>
><br>
> All more concrete rules would be established by the group<br>
> itself. I believe that if we make good rules we can avoid the problems<br>
> that afflict the other communication channels. We can start using emails<br>
> and pads - and then choose our own communication infrastructure.<br>
><br>
> All this will require some work from all participants - we need<br>
> volunteers that can regularly dedicate some of their time to<br>
> communicate with the group and with local parties and work on the issues.<br>
><br>
> Anyone interested?<br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Zbigniew Lukasiak<br>
> <a href="http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/</a><br>
> <a href="http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/</a><br>
> ____________________________________________________<br>
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk<br>
> <a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" target="_blank">http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a><br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:23:02 +0200<br>
From: Koen De Voegt <<a href="mailto:koen.devoegt@antwerpsepiraten.be">koen.devoegt@antwerpsepiraten.be</a>><br>
To: Paul Bossu <<a href="mailto:paul@pirateparty.be">paul@pirateparty.be</a>>, Josef Ohlsson Collentine<br>
<<a href="mailto:international@piratpartiet.se">international@piratpartiet.se</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:pp-leaders.discussion@lists.pp-international.net">pp-leaders.discussion@lists.pp-international.net</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp-leaders.discussion@lists.pp-international.net">pp-leaders.discussion@lists.pp-international.net</a>>, Pirate Parties<br>
International -- General Talk<br>
<<a href="mailto:pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net">pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] [pp-leaders.discussion] Fwd: Still<br>
missing 8/11 board reports from the last PPI board + alternate members<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:53739866.6010109@antwerpsepiraten.be">53739866.6010109@antwerpsepiraten.be</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you for your report Paul. Believe me we are trying to fix PPI.<br>
This is not an easy task and will take some time. More then I would<br>
like. I would like to note to everyone that doesn't like the way PPI is<br>
running should take up responsibility in trying to fix the matters<br>
instead of just giving criticism.<br>
<br>
Everyone feel free to propose any solution you are willing to implement<br>
to help PPI get back on track!<br>
<br>
Koen<br>
<br>
op 12-05-14 14:43, Paul Bossu schreef:<br>
> here is my opinion : <a href="http://piratepad.be/p/ppiboard" target="_blank">http://piratepad.be/p/ppiboard</a><br>
><br>
> *_PPI Alternate Board Member (2nd) - Report_*<br>
><br>
> As asked by Joseph, here is my rapport of 2nd alternate board member<br>
><br>
> When i was candidate in april 2013 it was because form many pirates,<br>
> PPI is nothing and do nothing.<br>
><br>
> So i was alected 2nd alternate BM, in cas of problem with one of the<br>
> elected board member.<br>
><br>
> I've do some mumble meeting at the beginning but as expected, it was<br>
> totally not interesting and most of the time speaking<br>
><br>
> I was not eh first one on the alternate list so i was also discuissing<br>
> with Jelena (1st alternate)<br>
><br>
> I was clearly not more candidate for any position at PPi this year<br>
> because i found this organisation totally unrelevant and working as a<br>
> little circle of people who just wantr to have the tittle of "chair<br>
> person of world pirates" or just want to say they are "PPI Board Member<br>
><br>
> So after two or three mont of this non productive meetings, i was just<br>
> following the mailing (board@ppi) and mailing list<br>
><br>
> You know, PPI is Gregory Engel's club for him and his friends ... and<br>
> th'at's all<br>
><br>
> If after 4 years it's always the same people representing pirates of<br>
> the world ... (Gregory Engels and his close friends.)... i suppose<br>
> everyopne on earth can understand where the problem is<br>
><br>
> *Pirately yours and ... "PPI, never again '"*<br>
><br>
> Paul<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> *Paul Bossu*<br>
> **<br>
> Board Member @PiratesBelgium <<a href="http://lepartipirate.be/about" target="_blank">http://lepartipirate.be/about</a>> | Board<br>
> Member @EuropeanPirates <<a href="http://www.europeanpirates.eu/" target="_blank">http://www.europeanpirates.eu/</a>><br>
> Linked In Profile <<a href="http://be.linkedin.com/in/paulbossu" target="_blank">http://be.linkedin.com/in/paulbossu</a>>| @Popol349<br>
> <<a href="https://twitter.com/Popol349%E2%80%8E" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/Popol349%E2%80%8E</a>> | <a href="http://www.god2014.be" target="_blank">www.god2014.be</a><br>
> <<a href="http://god2014.be/" target="_blank">http://god2014.be/</a>> | +32 494 28 35 28<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> pp-leaders.discussion mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:pp-leaders.discussion@lists.pp-international.net">pp-leaders.discussion@lists.pp-international.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-leaders.discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-leaders.discussion</a><br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>