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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">[pp.int.general] PP-IT Statutes & pan-organizational Structures WG</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">carlo von lynX</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">lun 16/10/2017 12:38Pirate Parties International -- General Talk (pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net)</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> I wanted to answer in private, but hotmail doesn't like mail from me.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><span></span>Don't worry, I have absolutely no need for privacy on this issue ;).<br>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 07:45:27PM +0000, Antonio Garcia wrote:</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> Not having any respect for logic and ethic is not just a little small</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> deficiency... it is having nothing solid to build and expand upon, as
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> pirates. You're not paying attention to THAT, then any improvement and
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> lesson learned (what kind of?) is still utterly worthless.</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> We're researching the possibility of using legal+software to maximize
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> collective rationality, dealing with what you say here, right?</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> You can probably parse Italian partially, so here's the link:</font></font></p>
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<a href="https://forum.partito-pirata.it/t/filosofia-della-democrazia-razionale-collettiva/1619" id="LPlnk124157" previewremoved="true">
https://forum.partito-pirata.it/t/filosofia-della-democrazia-razionale-collettiva/1619</a></span></span></font></font></font></p>
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<a id="LPUrlAnchor_15081811836380.44366169000777755" href="https://forum.partito-pirata.it/t/filosofia-della-democrazia-razionale-collettiva/1619" target="_blank" style="text-decoration:none">Filosofia della Democrazia Razionale Collettiva - Forum ...</a></div>
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forum.partito-pirata.it</div>
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Cari amici, sapete che da tempo vorrei trovare un modo gentile ma efficace e bilanciato di integrare la filosofia illuminista nel processo democratico liquido. Ho ...</div>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">There is a basic flaw in your research, Carlo. If you want everybody to be equal as the grassroots movement demands, then you
can NOT use software so complex that only a few understand how it works (not only the user interface, but also the logic internals) because then some are more equal than others.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">No matter how much those that do NOT understand the internals love it because at first sight it seems to enable a bypass in the
user interface whereby people can simply forget all the argumentation and go straight to the VOTE BUTTON.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">Liquid Feedback enables a CLICK-THROUGH #IDIOCRAZY where the votes of the few that have given the issues input and serious thought
are worth JUST AS MUCH as the votes of those many that after a weekend of alcoholic nirvana log in to randomly asses their equality to others by simply pushing any vote option without giving its meaning a single thought. I vote, thus I am ;).</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">The issue is being problematic enough where there is a cost attached to the behaviour, like the travel costs involved to the
presence of folks at the real life BundesParteiTag tradition. It can only get worse where the real cost of access to "I vote, thus I am" philosophy is practically ZERO.<br>
</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> Has your German Pirate Party with all those great contributors to the
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> PPI board and functioning structures throughout the years found what
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> lesson is to be learned from its last 0,37% miraculous results to the
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> Bundestag elections?</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><br>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> No, the Germans are insisting on their losing recipe. I do understand</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> that each one of them has a different diagnosis on what is going
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> wrong, which means that the inability to come to a consensus persists</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> beyond the failure.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">True. The problem being that ONCE you get a mayority to lose sight of logic and ethic in their behaviour, said majority will
do whatever simplistic thing necessary to maintain and increase their influence in the decision process.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">That is why they insist on the grassroots democratic value of Liquid Feedback, BEO, or whatever other mechanism that allows them
to vote without the hassle of being acquainted with the issue at hand. Any technical means that enables them to skip everything tedious at the user interface level and go straight for a VOTE BUTTON, gives them a very cheap "I vote, thus I am" confirmation
mechanism for worthless, but anyway coveted, self-confidence. A very psychological issue.<br>
</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> I'm with the Italians, but I'm also to blame. I did the work of</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> translating our Guidelines for Moderation, but didn't help Pakki</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> enough to turn it into a votable proposal for the BPT.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">The problem of the Italian Pirate Party with its LIQUID FEEDBACK general and permanent assembly is well known... in order not
to be taken over by the majority as I described them... you need a very elaborated vetting mechanism for those you give access to the VOTE BUTTON. A vetting mechanism that will be tainted by the understanding of those that are already inside and able to decide
on its characteristics at the moment it goes up, and then becomes immune to no matter how rational the critics of those that did not have the chance to be a part of the relatively random group of initial adopters.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">The Spanish group X-net has an identical endogamic problem.<br>
</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> I've had a look into the proposals for the next BPT and seen the
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> candidates for the next board of directors... and I do not see a hint
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> of any lessons learned, any will to improve.</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> Thanks for checking so I don't have to do it.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">My pleasure, even if a bitter pill. I keep watching everything unfold along expected lines ;(.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">Last chapter just popped up in the mail... The European Pirate Party controversy ;(.<br>
</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> What else do you think can be left to do but laughing at you?</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> Laughing at the wrong people? Feels good maybe, but</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> isn't solving anything. Also, when the day comes that</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> the behavioral deficits in the Pirate movement are</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> addressed, your condescending tones would be among</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> the first to be subject of moderation...</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">Laughing at the whole tragicomic situation. There is no wrong or right, good or bad people here, it is a whole interdependant
mass dynamic.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">And laughing at people is NOT the same as people believing they are being laughed at.<br>
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">No doubt I am as worthy of being sent to the Gulag as any intellectual under the Bolshevik, Mao or Vietcong administration.<br>
</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> In fact, I candidated for the PPI CoA just to deal</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> with the tones on this mailing list, but I never</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> found out who has the admin password for it.</font></font></p>
<font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">
<div>Ask "mattias.bjarnemalm@piratpartiet.se" <mattias.bjarnemalm@piratpartiet.se>. The list is managed by the Swedish, and he once threathened to exclude me from it ;).<br>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> Pirates are a complete failure, simple human mass dynamics made a
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">>> kindergarten of them.</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> Yes, that's what our working group is about. Making</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> structures that resist the kindergarten effect.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">Sadly, there is NO WAY you are ever going to achieve anything from INSIDE the already existing KINDERGARTEN. I ran the Spanish
Pirate Party all the way down to ONLY THIRTEEN members... and still the infantile were a majority, because the intelligent go away or stay away much earlier from any mechanism where the naieve have free reign to invade the structure much easier than any intelligent
group could.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">You need a workgroup of INTELLIGENT people creating the mechanisms and rules by which the group can stay majoritarily INTELLIGENT...
before you open up.<br>
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><br>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> Regarding corruption resistance: how would you describe</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> when a decision is being made by a thousand people instead</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> of one? Isn't that an example of corruption-resistant design?</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">A decision taken by a thousand people is as intelligent and corruption-resistant as the maximum intelligence level that can be
in use to be able to include 50%+1 of the members in such majority decision. If you have to go down to KINDERGARTEN level to find a 50%+1 group... then only KINDERGARTEN level decisions can be reached, any other unable to reach sufficient consensus.<br>
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">Talk about corruption resistance ;)).</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><br>
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> Or are you convinced that a thousand can be corrupted just</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> as easily as a single one?</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">Are you blind? Rational decision making needs rationality to be upheld actively.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">A thousand does not only get rationally corrupted, it also gets emotionally brainwashed.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><br>
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">That is what happened with PPI at the 2012 PPI GA and lingers on through all the others held since.<br>
</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> ____________________________________________________</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> Pirate Parties International - General Talk</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%" lang=""><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2">> pp.international.general@lists.pirateweb.net</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.35cm; line-height:115%"><font color="#000000"><font face="Courier New, monospace"><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2"><span lang=""><span style="text-decoration:none">>
<a href="http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general" id="LPlnk962719" previewremoved="true">
http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general</a></span></span></font></font></font></p>
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