[pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

[Reinier Bakels]

I would suggest that you read a basic legal introduction into the principles of property rights.

Apparently you do not understand the difference between "recognising" rights and "respecting" rights(*).
What rights are recognised is a political issue - actually the core issue of the pirate party movement.
But once a right(*) is recognised, it must be respected. That is the human rights "decent society" aspect. Anything that has a (legitimate) monetary value can not be taken away from citizen without a proper compensation.

(*) To avoid confusion: I refer to *subjective* rights here. E.g. a subjective right is MY copyright on a particular work - as opposed to THE copyright, which is abstract and only leads to subjective rights if and when someone creates something.    

Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar, Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou, Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kveðja
>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490,  fax +31 79 316 7221
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carlos Ayala Vargas 
  To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 9:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?


  Reinier Bakels wrote: 
    I actually referred to art. 1 of the first protocol to the ECHR:    
    Article 1 - Protection of property. Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law. [...]

    In this provision, "property" includes "intellectual property". Legal theory usually emphasises that the two are essentially different. The common denominator is however that a "property right", ONCE AND TO THE EXTENT IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED, deserves protection against expropriation (without a proper compensation). The logic behind this is that a right representing some (monetary) value should not be taken away from its owner, in a decent society.
  In a decent society! Well, most pirate parties signed an answer to an EC Consultation which stated that PPI doesn't consider author's rights as private property -among other reasons, because not even the highest supporters of private property (liberalism) consider author's rights as private property, thus finding intellectual pro...whatever a fallacy-.

  Thus, are you calling all signatories of that answer to the Levies Consultation ... indecent? Are you calling us indecent, Reinier?

  About the logic, please read UN's ESC before making such statements.

    In sum, for the pirate party the essence is:
  For the PPI, with your permission -actually, even without it :)-, the essence will be agreed, or not agreed, by all pirate parties, i.e., by their members. That is, by signing any of the proposed drafts, or not signing any of them -and which draft to sign being democratically and internally decided by each pirate party-.

    YES we recognise the (human rights) protection of information (or whatever overarching term you want to use) ONCE AND TO THE EXTENT IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED
    NO we do not assume that all creativity automatically leads to such rights, and we even challenge the present rights. The present limits are the output of a political process, rather than human rights requirements, so they are subject to change whenever political conceptions change.

    And it is the objective of PP to challenge the objects and contents of such rights. Not to deprive people from existing rights (without compensation). Only the latter would violate human rights.

    Is that clear? A literal interpretation of the above UDHR provision would mean the end of the PP - but it would also invalidate the ECHR, the US Constitution and similar Constitutional regulations.
  "Is that clear?" "the latter would violate human rights" "would mean the end of the PP" I truly hallucinate with your mail :) In Spain, we have a Political Parties Law which enables Government to illegalize parties which behave against the rule of the law and against the law itself; PIRATA states that intellectual property is a fallacy and, up to date, no letter from Ministry of Interior has arrived to us notifying a process to illegalize us.

  So no, it's not clear at all, as you aren't right: nobody is going to legally illegalize us because of defending author's rights while rejecting wicked concepts like intellectual pro...whatever.

  About "depriving people from existing rights (without compensation)", you're going against UN provisions. Considering the UN ESC's 2005 paper, and as long as UN allows retrogressive measures regarding author's rights if the State party which propose such measures proves that they come after careful consideration of all alternatives and that they are duly justified in the light of the totality of the human rights recognized in the Covenant (paragraph 27 of that paper), the term of material author's rights can be shortened falling considerably below current term and even maybe not extending over the entire lifsepan of the author, levies can be fully eliminated, and free non-commercial filesharing can be enabled -as long as we consider that non-commercial filesharing causes no prejudice to be compensated-.

  Please, document yourself way more prior to menacing us with illegalization or simmilar if we continue rejecting the intellectual pro...whatever concept, or accusing us of being indecent and being violating human rights -it seems that you went too far, don't you agree, Reinier?-. Regards,


                                                                                                      Carlos Ayala
                                                                                                      ( Aiarakoa )

                                                                             Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman 


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