[pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

Reinier Bakels r.bakels at planet.nl
Wed Dec 24 20:26:53 CET 2008

I have found the document you refer to. I am not sure about its authority. These are legal issues, and hardly ever in law there is THE truth. I repeat: the UN can only make statements, unlike the European Court of Human Rights, that can make binding decisions.
Making change to rights *after* they have been granted (or recognised (*)) in my view is really forbidden.
That does not mean however that political action can have no effect: if the law is changed, NEW (subjective) rights may be different, or perhaps may not be recognised/granted at all. But existing rights must be respected until they expire - or the owner must be compensated. The reason is actually pretty obvious. If I write something, I get the copyright, and I may sell the copyright to someone else, e.g. the publisher. Because he has paid the money, he can expect the government to protect his purchase.
Of course, a true pirate will wonder whether the copyright should be recognised at all. This is something that can change - but only for NEW creations.
Legislators should warrent legal certainty, but that does NOT mean it can not change the law - a common misconception.

(*) Patents are granted. Copyrights come into existence by the act of creation. It is a philosohical question whether the right is created automatically, or whether it is created "naturally" by the creativity of the author and only protected by the legal system. Well, that is just a detail.    

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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carlos Ayala Vargas 
  To: rms at gnu.org ; Pirate Parties International -- General Talk 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

  Richard M Stallman wrote: 
    In sum, for the pirate party the essence is:
    YES we recognise the (human rights) protection of information (or =
    whatever overarching term you want to use) ONCE AND TO THE EXTENT IT HAS =

That position is morally unacceptable.  If people can change laws to
establish unjust forms of privilege, they must also be able to change
laws to eliminate those unjust forms of privilege.  It is unacceptable
to require the people to pay for their freedom.

More specifically, that position implies that copyright can never be
shortened and no new exceptions can be created.  This conflicts
directly with the Pirate Party's specific platform.Agree with RMS on that; as said in former mails, UN's ESC restricts the way in that retrogressive changes may be applied to author's rights -specifically, I think we have material rights in mind (like shortening their lifespan, as RMS comments, and other changes)-; however, while restricted, those changes are allowed, and the UN's ESC 2005 paper proves it. Regards,

                                                                                            Carlos Ayala
                                                                                            ( Aiarakoa )

                                                                     Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman


  Pirate Parties International - General Talk
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