[pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

Wed Dec 24 22:05:04 CET 2008

Hi Carlos,
Sorry to say, but I am really surprised by the way you talk to me. No, I don't consider my own interpretation more valid than the UN interpretation. I only compare the position of the UDHR with the ECHR, and the different status of those statements (the one is a declaration, the other a treaty). I don't have the time to write a scientific article for you with footnotes supporting all my statements. To some extent you have to trust me - and, perhaps more importantly, the logic of what I contend.

Frankly, I believe that the logic of the system of property rights - or at least the European perspective of it - is pretty obvious. Unlike outsiders occasionally believe, law is mostly pretty logical. The "property" concept links into mainstream private law, which has a very solid basis, dating back to the Romans.  

I believe the paper you referred to is to a considerable extent based on Locke's philosophy. But this very philosophy leads exactly to the type of law that PP opposes. In simple terms, the idea is that labour creates an entitlement to a property right. But this truth from the world of tangible objects can not be transposed into the world of information goods such as works and inventions. This was recognised alredy by the great Grman law scholar Josef Kohler (1849-1919), and there are some seminal articles by the Austrian/Americam economist Fritz Machlup who explain the same thing.

I like informal communication, but I urge you to observe basic principles of politeness. Happy Christmas!  

Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar, Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou, Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kveðja
>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490,  fax +31 79 316 7221
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carlos Ayala Vargas 
  To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

  Reinier Bakels wrote: 
    I have found the document you refer to
  Congratulations :) I was afraid that, as I only linked it several times, you might have found difficult to find it.

    I am not sure about its authority. These are legal issues, and hardly ever in law there is THE truth. I repeat: the UN can only make statements, unlike the European Court of Human Rights, that can make binding decisions.
  For me is enough to consider UDHR as reference -in its true interpretation, not in the one given by you (I cannot believe that you give yourself authority to interprete UDHR while you deny authority ... to United Nations! Simply unbelievable)-. After having a reference, a basis to work with, the rest of legal frameworks can be modified according to it and to our viewpoints.

    Making change to rights *after* they have been granted (or recognised (*)) in my view is really forbidden.
  Making false or forged statements is not forbidden, though it should be highly recommendable not to be done.

  Who has talked here about forgetting rule of law? Pirate Manifesto explicitly acknowledges rule of law -one of its principles being irretroactivity of prejudicial changes-; so please stop falsely accusing people.

    That does not mean however that political action can have no effect: if the law is changed, NEW (subjective) rights may be different, or perhaps may not be recognised/granted at all. But existing rights must be respected until they expire - or the owner must be compensated. The reason is actually pretty obvious. If I write something, I get the copyright, and I may sell the copyright to someone else, e.g. the publisher. Because he has paid the money, he can expect the government to protect his purchase.
  Current EU legal framework states that "in certain situations where the prejudice to the rightholder would be minimal, no obligation to payment may arise" (2001/29/EC, preamble, paragraph 35). So we may discuss whether non-commercial filesharing causes or not none or minimal prejudice to rightholders -I say yes, it causes none or nearly none, I guess you say no; I can give arguments to my answer, hope you are able to give some for yours-.

    Of course, a true pirate will wonder whether the copyright should be recognised at all. This is something that can change - but only for NEW creations.
    Legislators should warrent legal certainty, but that does NOT mean it can not change the law - a common misconception.
  Why do you suppose that we are suffering that misconception? Again, read the Pirate Manifesto drafts, they talk about rule of law.

    (*) Patents are granted. Copyrights come into existence by the act of creation. It is a philosohical question whether the right is created automatically, or whether it is created "naturally" by the creativity of the author and only protected by the legal system. Well, that is just a detail.

  I found very amusing your viewpoint about copyrights being naturally created with the act of intellectual works creation -actually I find it bizarre even the usage of the C word-. Let's rather talk about author's rights and ... unless Mother Nature, God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster have told you that the C word is in the very nature of intellectual works -by the way, it would be quite worrying having you talking with any of those entities-, also forget that true/natural/logical words ... are you willing to give your statements a sort of halo that makes them untouchable ... or something? Laws, in democracy, are not passed by God nor by Mother Nature, but by human beings; and what is made by human beings can be changed by human beings.

                                                                                            Carlos Ayala
                                                                                            ( Aiarakoa )

                                                                     Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman 

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