[pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

[Reinier Bakels]

in my perception there is no human rights issue at all.

you referred to the UN document containing unusual ideas, and, yes, some of the PP ideas would be in conflict with those ideas: not recognising "unlimited" rights for authors because they are authors. the idea to allow retroactive changes in rights already assigned (or recognised) clearly violates the ECHR, if done without a proper compensation.

another comment to be made is that you should not be so nervous about "violating human rights". no human right is absolute. for the simple reason that human rights are often conflicting. the ECHR has found an excellent solution to deal with that: it contains explicit provisions on the conditions for *not* respecting specific human rights.

of course i am not accusing you of (proposing to) violating human rights. i only note that you clearly don't have been trained as a lawyer. do you really need such a training? well, your reaction demonstrates that you do.

frankly, my conclusion is that it virtually impossible to cooperate with you. last spring we alredy tried to cooperate on a joint response to a european consultation on levies - and then also you made a lot of noise - but in the end i had to write the response with my friends from vrijschrift (a dutch organisation). it was a missed opportunity to provide a eu-wide response from pp-int.

all of these problems are very complicated, so at least we should trust each others expertise.          
  
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>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carlos Ayala Vargas 
  To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk 
  Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 10:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?


  Reinier Bakels wrote: 
    Hi Carlos,
    Sorry to say, but I am really surprised by the way you talk to me. 
    I like informal communication, but I urge you to observe basic principles of politeness. Happy Christmas!  

  There were two ways of dealing this issue:

  - you could have asked me, or any of the people participating in the Manifesto development, about:
  * whether the rule of the law, and specifically irretroactivity of prejudicial changes, was going to be violated by PPI (obviously, no)
  * where did I got the arguments to state that intellectual pro...whatever is not a human right -while author's rights actually are-
  * etc

  - or you could have accused us of being violating human rights, being indecent, PPI being doomed, etc

  Unfortunately, you chose the second way. So I don't think that you're the most suitable person to talk about politeness; I mean, don't you agree on such accusations -specially that of being violating human rights- are unacceptable and not polite at all? Next time, prior to making such false accusations, ask first.


                                                                                                   Carlos Ayala
                                                                                                   ( Aiarakoa )

                                                                           Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman

  P.S.: "To some extent you have to trust me -and, perhaps more importantly, the logic of what I contend"

  I have to? Forcibly? Not a chance:

  - because of the unacceptable accusations of your former mails
  - because you didn't simply disagree with some -few or many- issues of UN analysis, but you stated about a United Nations paper "I am not sure about its authority"

  If you are going to discredit the authority of the United Nations -the organism who developed and approved UDHR- and nonsensical and falsely accuse us of such bold things, don't be surprised if I don't trust you for free; I need arguments, otherwise I cannot trust you.

  P.P.S.: And if you are willing to quote great men, let's talk about Thomas Jefferson -if US Founding Fathers stated that "no man can be deprived of life, liberty and property without due process of law", I hope you don't accuse him too of being violating anything concerning private property-: "he who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me" -i.e., he who receives an intellectual work from me, receives it without taking it away from me; thus, intellectual works are not appropriable, so cannot be considered as property-. If you search for more recent sources, check stances of many libertarians -probably the highest supporters of private property (I talk about libertarians as sources because I'm tired of that you're attacking private property thing)- on intellectual works (Kinsella, Long, etc) to check that yours is not the only way of thinking about this issue.



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