[pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

[machado at sociologia.de]

Less words, and more action, please.

The point is: we are against the contradictory concept of "intellectual 
property", but we recognise the moral rights of the authors. A lot of 
details and comparisons with the actual and contradictory laws could 
result in conflicts in this list. If we discuss with the "establishment" 
on the basis of the rules they made, we will lose the battle. We have to 
suggest new rules according to our values: share, cooperation, 
colaboration, transparency, open knowledge, etc.

Our strength are our values in these times. Let' s be simple and direct 
in the manifest in order to propose something different.

Jorge
Partido Pirata do Brasil


Reinier Bakels escreveu:
> in my perception there is no human rights issue at all.
>  
> you referred to the UN document containing unusual ideas, and, yes, 
> some of the PP ideas would be in conflict with those ideas: not 
> recognising "unlimited" rights for authors because they are authors. 
> the idea to allow retroactive changes in rights already assigned (or 
> recognised) clearly violates the ECHR, if done without a proper 
> compensation.
>  
> another comment to be made is that you should not be so nervous about 
> "violating human rights". no human right is absolute. for the simple 
> reason that human rights are often conflicting. the ECHR has found an 
> excellent solution to deal with that: it contains explicit provisions 
> on the conditions for *not* respecting specific human rights.
>  
> of course i am not accusing you of (proposing to) violating human 
> rights. i only note that you clearly don't have been trained as a 
> lawyer. do you really need such a training? well, your reaction 
> demonstrates that you do.
>  
> frankly, my conclusion is that it virtually impossible to cooperate 
> with you. last spring we alredy tried to cooperate on a joint response 
> to a european consultation on levies - and then also you made a lot of 
> noise - but in the end i had to write the response with my friends 
> from vrijschrift (a dutch organisation). it was a missed opportunity 
> to provide a eu-wide response from pp-int.
>  
> all of these problems are very complicated, so at least we 
> should trust each others expertise.          
>   
> Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar, 
> Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, 
> Yassou, Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kveðja
> >>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
> private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The 
> Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 
> 6490,  fax +31 79 316 7221
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Carlos Ayala Vargas <mailto:aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
>     *To:* Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>     <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>     *Sent:* Thursday, December 25, 2008 10:44 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?
>
>     Reinier Bakels wrote:
>>     Hi Carlos,
>>     Sorry to say, but I am really surprised by the way you talk to me. 
>>     I like informal communication, but I urge you to observe basic
>>     principles of politeness. Happy Christmas! 
>     There were two ways of dealing this issue:
>
>     - you could have asked me, or any of the people participating in
>     the Manifesto development, about:
>     * whether the rule of the law, and specifically irretroactivity of
>     prejudicial changes, was going to be violated by PPI (obviously, no)
>     * where did I got the arguments to state that /intellectual
>     pro...whatever/ is not a human right -while author's rights
>     actually are-
>     * etc
>
>     - or you could have accused us of being violating human rights,
>     being indecent, PPI being doomed, etc
>
>     Unfortunately, you chose the second way. So I don't think that
>     you're the most suitable person to talk about politeness; I mean,
>     don't you agree on such accusations -specially that of being
>     violating human rights- are unacceptable and not polite at all?
>     Next time, prior to making such false accusations, ask first.
>
>
>                                                                                                     
>     Carlos Ayala
>                                                                                                     
>     ( Aiarakoa )
>
>        
>                                                                         
>     Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman
>
>     P.S.: "/To some extent *you have to* trust me -and, perhaps more
>     importantly, the logic of what I contend/"
>
>     I /have to/? Forcibly? Not a chance:
>
>     - because of the unacceptable accusations of your former mails
>     - because you didn't simply disagree with some -few or many-
>     issues of UN analysis, but you stated about a United Nations paper
>     "/I am not sure about its authority/"
>
>     If you are going to discredit the authority of the United Nations
>     -the organism who developed and approved UDHR- and nonsensical and
>     falsely accuse us of such bold things, don't be surprised if I
>     don't trust you for free; I need arguments, otherwise I cannot
>     trust you.
>
>     P.P.S.: And if you are willing to quote great men, let's talk
>     about Thomas Jefferson -if US Founding Fathers stated that "/no
>     man can be deprived of life, liberty and property without due
>     process of law/", I hope you don't accuse him too of being
>     violating anything concerning private property-: "/he who receives
>     an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening
>     mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without
>     darkening me/" -i.e., he who receives an intellectual work from
>     me, receives it without taking it away from me; thus, intellectual
>     works are not appropriable, so cannot be considered as property-.
>     If you search for more recent sources, check stances of many
>     libertarians -probably the highest supporters of private property
>     (I talk about libertarians as sources because I'm tired of that
>     /you're attacking private property/ thing)- on intellectual works
>     (Kinsella <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Kinsella>, Long
>     <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderick_T._Long>, etc) to check
>     that yours is not the only way of thinking about this issue.
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     ____________________________________________________
>     Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>     pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>     http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
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>   


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