[pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

[Reinier Bakels]

I did not blame anybody for incorrect propositions on human rights issues. The connection between human rights and copyright (etc.) is a complicated, technical-legal issue. Well, we are not all lawyers, so - again - I don't blame anybody. But I do emphasise that there are in law, and this field in particular, no 100% truths, if only because rights are often conflicting. Even the "right to life" is relative: if someone threatens to kill me, and I really have not alternative,I am allowed to kill the person who threatens me.

There is a stream in literature that defends (broad) copyright on a philosophy that equates "intellectual property" more or less to real property (eventually based on the philosphy of Locke). Needless to say that the PP movement disagrees with such ideas. But that does not mean that PP strives to violate human rights, even though (interested!) people will argue it does, if not on the level of positive law, then at least on a moral level. These are the people who equate infringement to theft. Well, fortunately there also an abundance of (professional) liteature that explains why this is definitely wrong. Another comment to be made is that overly strict views on copyright may well violate the "freedom of information" human right (which is - as you al know - not limited to "freedom of speech" but incudes freedom to *receive* information).

BUT should a political movement like PP really be overly concerned with law? The purpose of politics is (democratic control of) lawmaking. Not the other way round! Otherwise, a "loop" would result. Well, perhaps that is a fair description if present copyright lawmaking - but PP is on earth to change that!  

Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar, Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou, Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kveðja
>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490,  fax +31 79 316 7221
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carlos Ayala Vargas 
  To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk 
  Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2008 12:35 PM
  Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?


  Before proceeding to this mail, people will reasonably complain about our quarrel being developed in this mailing list. Thus, as you have already stated that you dislike current Pirate Manifesto drafts, you also have already accused us of some things and I have already denied your accusations, I think it would be better to continue this -if there were any need of continue this- privately, don't you agree? Otherwise, we would be flooding PPI list with a disagreeable quarrel.

  Reinier Bakels wrote:

    you referred to the UN document containing unusual ideas, and, yes, some of the PP ideas would be in conflict with those ideas: not recognising "unlimited" rights for authors because they are authors. the idea to allow retroactive changes in rights already assigned (or recognised) clearly violates the ECHR, if done without a proper compensation.
  Who has the idea to allow retroactive changes in rights already assigned? Sadly, you continue with that stuff ... the UN paper talks about retrogressive, nor retroactive. Retrogressive ... at the end, all this quarrel just because of you misread me and misread the UN paper?

    another comment to be made is that you should not be so nervous about "violating human rights"
  I'm not nervous, but offended by you stating that Pirate Manifesto drafts ... even UN papers! aim to violate human rights. It's ridiculous, and now I see that all is just due to you misreading me and UN. I repeat what I said in my former mail: please, prior to launch such false accusations, first ask people, and read carefully.


                                                                                                   Carlos Ayala
                                                                                                   ( Aiarakoa )

                                                                           Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman 


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