[pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

Mon Dec 29 20:10:28 CET 2008

1. Please cut out the long nested replies.

2.while it is important to see things in this way, it is also important that
we recognize that until these issues are recognized as human rights, civil
rights, RIGHTS!, etc., these issues will only be resolved for this
generation of technology.

I think that If we construct a legal framework which resolves the issues we
face currently, thus resolving the issues now, we can then more easily frame
the issue as one of RIGHTS!, thus defending the rights of those who will
come after us.

To me, it is seems apparent that reiner wants a solution for the Now, where
as Carlos and the others defending the human rights approach want a solution
for Always (or at least 'Later'). It is possible to achieve both.

So perhaps we could sideline the rights! part of this, at least until we are
successful in reframing the conversation/have changed the law.

We should however continue the debate you were having, about commercial
rights/tangibility of copyright as it exists now, the complexities of
changing the law regarding things currently recognized as rights, and the
tangibility of copyright as it might exist in the future.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Reinier Bakels <r.bakels at pr.unimaas.nl>wrote:

>  Thanks for the encouragement. My concern is actually that we get carried
> away from solution directions. As I explained in another mail, the human
> rights route imnsho is unlikely to be productive, and may even be
> counter-productive. Striving for a reduction of the copyright term is a VERY
> large term option, not because it is unimportant, but merely judged from a
> feasibility perspective.
>
> But various other reforms can indeed me productive:
> - the private copy exception
> - more in general: fair used instead of the present closed system
> - subject matter limitations (at least in NL there is a tendence of the
> Supreme Court to extent copyrightable subject-matter)
> - rights conferred (using copyrighted material currently is not a reserved
> right - one can read a book as often as one likes to - but publishers may
> want to change this
> - copyright contracts
> - role of publishers/distributors(protecting a market that has disappeared
> due to internet
> - exhaustion
> - collecting societies
> - levies
> - DRM
> - copyright abuse, from a copyright or even human rights perspective
> - enforcement reforms (IPRED1/2) - in particular limiting criminal
> enforcement
> - is  the list long enough?
>
> Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar,
> Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou,
> Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kvedja
> >>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
> private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The Netherlands
> telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490,  fax +31 79 316
> 7221
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Will Pomes <pomescollege at gmail.com>
> *To:* Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 29, 2008 9:19 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?
>
> I have not spoken up in this thread, though I understand what you mean
> here.
>
> I assure you that I am trying to understand, because I look at this debate
> as a struggle for the heart and soul of the movement. Just because Carlos
> and the others may not be listening when you speak, does not mean that you
> have to stop speaking.
>
> When you talk about how change might come about, it helps to bring us all a
> little closer to a viewpoint that we can gain popular acceptance with.
>
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:13 AM, Reinier Bakels <r.bakels at pr.unimaas.nl>wrote:
>
>>  i think it is not very useful to continue this debate. you consistently
>> try NOT to understand me.
>> i suspect you are a fifth colone employed by a record company. or you are
>> simply a pathetic troublemaker. of course there is room for disagreement and
>> debate, but then it should be conducted in a constructive manner. you look
>> for differences where they do not exist. you are not prepared to
>> accept basics in law that are familiar to all lawyers. and you have the bad
>> habit of making a factual debate personal, blaming me to offend you. if you
>> can't control  your emotions, we do not get anywhere. you even occasionally
>> blame me to offend others, like the UN.
>>
>> Yes indeed, this mail IS offensive. And I am also about to get offended
>> by your unwillingness to conduct a constructive debate.
>>
>> If ever there will be a Dutch PP, it will use its own "manifesto" - and it
>> will probably use a different name.
>>
>> Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar,
>> Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou,
>> Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kvedja
>> >>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
>> private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The Netherlands
>> telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490,  fax +31 79 316
>> 7221
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Carlos Ayala Vargas <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
>> *To:* Pirate Parties International -- General Talk<pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 29, 2008 3:40 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?
>>
>>  Reinier Bakels wrote:
>>
>> My experience is that it is not very helpful at all to refer to human
>> rights considerations in a political context. Political arguments are
>> different from legal arguments anyway, and if you still want to address
>> specific legal issues or proposals, it is helpful to be careful not to give
>> your opponents (IFPI etc.) the arguments for saying: these people are
>> irresponsible. That risk is particularly high with human rights.
>>
>> If the opponents are going to say that, I'm going to laugh at them -people
>> who knows about RMOs in Spain vary from laughing to blaming RMOs when they
>> publicly dismiss human rights like privacy -violated by SGAE-, right to
>> associate -violated by SGAE-, obligation to have inner democracy within an
>> association -violated by SGAE-, etc.
>>
>> The thing is, Reinier: do you find irresponsible that we, in PPI, refer to
>> human rights? Truly, as long as PIRATA refer, in its very Statute, to human
>> rights and UDHR, it doesn't matter to me; human rights are so important for
>> us that what seems irresponsible for me is to dismiss them.
>>
>> And for copyright, there are the collective rights organisations. This is
>> a complete Sodom & Gomorra.
>>
>> Gomorra <http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=gomorra>, yes.
>>
>> Incidentally, authors who use the services of such organisations loose the
>> right to prohibit publications - which is a central (also moral) aspect of
>> the copyright as it was designed. And the levies.
>>
>> There is a proverb, "*you are preaching a converse*" -about the harm made
>> by levies and RMOs; about other issues we are actual and obviously
>> antagonists-; I think that the PPI answers to the levies consultation
>> already show how we reject levies and how we reject the current role of RMOs
>> -the problem is not in RMOs existing, but in RMOs hijacking some author's
>> rights (RMOs must serve authors, not the opposite)-.
>>
>> And isn't - in practice - the prime task of the PP to counter the
>> dominance of the distributors, who are no longer needed in the Internet era
>> - and try to prolong their life by ugly legal methods? This calls for better
>> copyright contract law, among other things.
>>
>> This call, first of all, to forget the *c word* and the *intellectual
>> pro...whatever* concept; and talk about author's rights. If you are so
>> worried about RMOs, first of all I think you should avoid to use they
>> language.
>>
>> But stay away from human rights.
>>
>> I have to wholeheartedly say that I totally dismiss *advices* like "*stay
>> away from human rights*" -whatever the context in which such words may be
>> said-.
>>
>> As you all know, I have extensively cooperated in the campaign against
>> software patents. But I always advised my fellow activists not to use
>> amateur human rights arguments.
>>
>> Bad for them if they paid attention to such *advices*. In EU, biopatents
>> are allowed; in EU, monopolies from patents can arise; while the EU patent
>> system may not present as much problems as US system, it indeed has
>> problems.
>>
>> And strictly about software patents, why is it so bothering to you to hear
>> your fellow activists to talk about, e.g., the Blackberry (RIM vs NTP)
>> scandal<http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/03/rim-ntp-settle-for-612-million-finally/>and other
>> *real* dangers of the US patent system? It's a great idea to show how
>> things are in other countries, to convince people to not follow bad
>> examples, and it of course can be done within the software patents concept.
>>
>> If only because - at best - their efforts will duplicate the work of real
>> lawyers, while no one cares for the social substance of the problem, e.g.
>> the (alleged) stiffling effects of software patents.
>>
>> There is a misconception about the importance of real lawyers: being a
>> real lawyer doesn't imply that such lawyer is going to give you good
>> advices, or that is going to make good usage of laws; simply, it implies
>> that such lawyer knows about laws. However, that knowledge can be used for
>> evilish purposes -I see it in Spain, where Law scholars, even constitutional
>> experts, while I don't doubt that they perfectly know about Spanish
>> Constitution and constitutionalism, I neither doubt about the reasons for
>> their lies about those issues-.
>>
>> If a trustable lawyer tells me "*you cannot inmediately adapt all the
>> system; you can change the framework for new items, and manage a
>> transitional period for old items to harmonize*", I'll make usage of the
>> lawyer's wisdom, as long as that lawyer shows how to make changes without
>> violating rule of law. However, if that lawyer states "*you cannot adapt
>> the system*" ... I search for other lawyer.
>>
>> Then you get the kind of conversation:  "This is a disaster all over
>> Europe". Answer: "Give me one example" - and then there no example, but just
>> hearsay from the US (where the patent system is definitely different).
>>
>> To some extent it is a blessing in disguise, that the disasters in the
>> field of copyright are more obvious. On the other hand, the PP arguments are
>> slightly counter intuitive vs. the "poor" artists.
>>
>> Again, I disagree with your unjustified viewpoints. How do you say that
>> PPI (not PP, we are not PP) arguments are slightly counter intuitive?
>>
>> - having less than 1.000 *poor artists* controlling a 85.000-member RMO
>> like SGAE is pretty intuitive and people who knows about it understands it
>> very quickly
>> - collecting a fee for media and devices, no matter whether you are going
>> to use them for copyrighted works or not, is pretty intuitive
>> - dangers of initiatives like US *Choruss* and France's *Olivennes
>> Agreement* -their threats against privacy and other fundamental rights
>> (those rights you *advice* to stay away from ... no thanks)- are pretty
>> intuitive.
>>
>> And I don't talk about PPI supporters; I talk about people who have never
>> heard about us, hairdressers, bartenders, etc, who after hearing the wonders
>> made by RMOs inmediately understand the threat that it implies. So please
>> don't be so disrespectful with our arguments.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carlos Ayala
>>
>> ( Aiarakoa )
>>
>>
>> Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
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>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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>>
>> ____________________________________________________
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>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
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> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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> ____________________________________________________
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