[pp.int.general] Political Party X (was: Uppsala Declaration)

[Carlos Ayala]

----- Mensaje original ----
De: Ole Husgaard <pirat at sparre.dk>
Enviado: miércoles, 2 de julio, 2008 23:54:35
> I have the same problem of too many mails to respond to now that I am finally back home.
>
> But I would like to respond to some of the major issues being raised:
>
> - This is almost like the pirate manifesto, but only agreed by a few people.
>
> No, this is NOT a manifesto.

Who has arisen such issue? Not me, as what I state is that such declaration is not a manifesto, but -in Marten's words- a political platform. And again I wonder which pirate parties have already signed such platform. Apart, making the political platform before making the manifesto -before finding out what do we exactly have in common, not in the national scope, but in the international scope- is start building the house from the roof.

> We were aware that a common manifesto would be hard to agree on and that it would need a lot of discussion.
> So we agreed only to a platform for the EU Parliament elections.

Who are we? The Uppsala attendance? Or the pirate parties?

Apart, it's impossible for you to know how hard is going to be the development of the Pirate Manifesto if you have never attended the Manifesto's development meetings.

> The manifesto is very important for us. We should get the discussions for this restarted, as Carlos and others
> suggested. But the manifesto is something that we should IMHO not rush, as it it way to important. Instead we just
> settled for a "common platform" that we believe all the EU parties will be able to agree to.

Again, who are we? If with we you don't mean pirate parties, but only the Uppsala attendance, no pledge of allegiance can be made to such declaration.

Also, are you going to attend tomorrow at 8:00 pm CEST at #ppi channel in irc.piratpartiet.se together with the rest of PPI pirate parties representatives, in order to relaunch the Pirate Manifesto after having made a briefing about your party's ideology? Because while you say that Pirate Manifesto's discussions should be restarted, you ask it not to be rushed. Are you going to attend tomorrow, i.e., are you personally going to make any effort before 2009 European Election to relaunch the Pirate Manifesto?

> - This is binding to the parties.
>
> This is only binding to the people who said they agree. I personally agree, but it will not be binding to the danish PP
> until I discussed this internally with my party and the local party agree.

Fine. So, Danish Pirate Party has not signed it yet; I guess Deutsches Piraten Partei has neither do it; nor PPOE, nor Parti Pirate, nor Piraatti Puolue, nor Piraten Partij, nor Partia Piratow ... and of course, nor PIRATA. So, if nobody has signed it nor given support as a party instead of as an individual, how can be stated and released to the media that such text is the 2009 PPI platform? That's deceiving -at least- swedish media and citizens.

And that because of what I said -and I say- that such text is binding, because it's making a false statement -pretending it to be PPI's platform when it isn't- that forces it to be disallowed; otherwise, our silence would contribute to make media have a wrong idea of us.

> I think we have many differences. These differences have to be respected. When discussing the common platform we
> were careful to state the final document in a way that we thought all the EU parties could agree to.

It doesn't matter how careful you were writing Uppsala Declaration; until pirate parties don't sign it, it has no value at all, and cannot be used to show what will PPI defend next year at the European Election.

> - Joining another EU-Parl group would be bad.
>
> If we get enough votes to form our own group that would be best.

- if we join a traditional party, we'd lose our ideological neutrality
- the first paragraph talks about dealing not with all current seven parliamentary groups, but with groups that could be of interest; which groups are those -Marten & Amelia haven't answered yet-? greens? united left/nordic green left? each one of us is supposed to have an own ideology for non-core issues; however, it's not acceptable to force PPI to follow personal/one-concrete-pirate-party ideologies
-
if we support a traditional party in non-core issues in exchange of
that party not granting us support in our core issues, we'd lose our ideological neutrality for nothing
- if we lose our ideological neutrality for nothing and, as ALOA5 pointed, become a party without personality, we'd follow the way to our self-destruction -as it's happening with United Left in Spain (from 22 MPs in 1996 to 2
MPs ... and 1 of them is not really theirs but from Catalonian
Initiative-Greens) because of behaving as PSOE's vassals-

> But if not we could get better political influence by joining another group. We would not be bound by it, as we can
> leave the group if we want. And the group we (if needed) join do not support our issues we can leave it again. This will
> help pressuring a larger group of parliamentarians to support our issues in order to get our votes on issues where we
> do not care in exchange for them voting for our issues.

Please, read again the Uppsala Declaration: it encourages to "listen to the advice of the group on all other issues, and vote with the group unless we have some strong reasons not to", in exchange of us doing "our utmost to persuade the other members of the group to join our position on the issues that fall within our political platform" -i.e., in exchange of that gropu not granting us support in those core issues-.

Furthermore, Piratpartiet 2006 Valmanifest states that if -in an scenario with two major parties- "both the factions refuse to meet our demands. This is the more
complicated case, but we can handle this one too. Initially we will
support one faction, and make a government possible. Most likely this
will be the ones with the less votes, so that the others, the
‘victors’, will feel that they have lost power they were entitled to.
They can, however, not do much about it, since we will support the
government without questioning in anything that does not involve our
principles" -i.e.: supporting in exchange of nothing-; so if you want to leave the group if that group doesn't support PPI in exchange of an hypothetical support in non-core issues ... let me warn you that Piratpartiet disagrees with you on that.

> P.S: I really like all the opposition we see now. This is important. I only hope that new discussions are concrete (as
> opposed to theoretical) and make a starting point by quoting the text agreed on at the Uppsala conference and stating
> what could be better

Ole, I've send mails making exactly what you request -I did it on monday, at 11:29, at 11:58 and at 12:30-, so please read first those mails before :) Regards


                                                                                    Carlos Ayala
                                                                                    ( Aiarakoa )

                                                           Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman



      ______________________________________________ 
Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20080702/5d248a0b/attachment.htm