[pp.int.general] "Natural" law

[Reinier Bakels]

Perhaps the essence of the human rights argument is that it is not entirely 
nonsensical to advocate a strong copyright and tough enforcement sacrificing 
privacy - i.e. objectives 180 degrees contrary to "pirate" objectives, based 
on human rights. Why not? Respected writers voice such opinions in the 
professional liteture. And there are different human rights sets: the UNDR, 
the US Constitution, the ECHR, and national constitutions. What provision 
takes precedence in a particular situation is not straightforward. And 
perhaps more importantly, there are - apparently - different views on works 
and authors: compare the American constitution and the UNDR, both respected 
regulations.

So I would favour *direct* arguments. If opponents argue with human rights 
arguments, face them with a "reality check". Examples are very helpful in 
politics.

An example. the Dutch parliament questioned the competence of the EU in the 
field of criminal measures against intellectual property infringement 
(IPRED2, for insiders). It engaged some specialised attorneys who wrote a 
thorough and watertight argument. European Commisioner Frattini decided to 
fight tjhis firght on his own battlefield, and responded by a tearjerking 
letter referring to child labour, terrorism and casualties due to fake 
medicines. Dreadful, but first class typical political rhetoric.

Isn't the conclusion that it would have been better to start with politcal 
arguments? Human rights arguments are legal by definition, as soon as it 
comes to any level of detail. Of course, everybody is in favour of human 
rights. But interpretations differ - even among respected people!

> Reinier Bakels wrote:
> >> Of course, many people argue about human rights all the time. But the 
> >> actual effect on legislation in Western Europe afaik is minor, and not 
> >> always in a desirable direction.
> > I think that's due to two things:
> >
> > - pirate parties are rather recent, too recent to have already achieved 
> > results
> > - the effect on legislation in Western Europe is actually made by 
> > political parties; if, in Spain, 323 out of 350 seats belong to only two 
> > parties, those parties agree on obeying pro-copyright lobbies and most 
> > citizens believe that only one of those two parties can prevail, how 
> > would they gonna make it? punishing one by voting the other one? only 
> > when pirate parties get a major role, the effect on legislation will 
> > also be major -and in the desirable direction-
> >> I may recall that many politicians support the idea of tough copyright 
> >> enforcement in order to learn youngsters again to respect property. 
> >> "Today they steal a MP3, tomorrow a bycycle". Property needs to be 
> >> respected. A basic human right.
> > A basic lie from traditional politicians: intellectual works (namely and 
> > using the same example, MP3-formatted songs) are not property, thus 
> > cannot be stolen. And I believe that lies have to be countered and 
> > denied; rather than prevent us to defend human rights, I believe that 
> > those lies and distortions should even encourage us more to defend human 
> > rights.
> >>> http://www.todoscontraelcanon.es/index2.php?body=suscribe_entidades
> >> Sorry, my command of Spanish is very limited.
> > Just pay attention to the numbers -they are almost universal-: sum the 
> > three amounts, and you'll have about 3 million signatures collected by 
> > /Todos Contra el Canon/ against levies. However, as long as Spanish 
> > Congress is ruled by PSOE & PP -with the help of IU and nationalist 
> > parties, most or even all of them obeying pro-copyleft lobbies-, no 
> > matter whether 3 or 33 million signatures are collected ... we need to 
> > enter the Congress and nail seats to make a real effect.
> >>> huh? /non-written intellectual pro...whatever/ law? Which is that law?
> >> This is controversial item among lawyers.
> > If law is /non-written/, not even in case law form, who cares about it? 
> > I believe that judges making judgments according to /non-written/ laws, 
> > nor to case-law, violates law essentials. Remember: it is essential that 
> > human rights should be protected by the rule of law.
> >> The mainstream is that copyright/authors right/patents/trademark 
> >> law/design model law and a few other *explicitly* codified fields are 
> >> exceptions to the rule of information.The minority perception is that 
> >> there is a generalised right associated with all intellectual 
> >> achievements, even if not explicitly codified.
> > Only two viewpoints? I disagree:
> >
> > - UDHR's 27.2, and United Nations, acknowledge author's rights as human 
> > rights -also 27.1, and United Nations, acknowledges citizens' rights on 
> > culture-
> > - however, we in PIRATA reject the usage of /non-written/ laws; only 
> > rule of law is acceptable for us -of course, we also aim to make the law 
> > following certain standards, among others, being the law that citizens 
> > actually want (not the one wanted only by MPs or the ones who influence 
> > them)-
> >
> > That's a third viewpoint; and there may be some more.
> >> Infringements will be handled my tort law, which is usually open ended 
> >> (in NL it is, en DE it is not, elsewhere I don't know)
> > What is /my tort law/?
> >> One of the professors at Utrecht University promotes unwritten 
> >> intellectual property rights (e.g. "goodwill"), but another professor, 
> >> his former PhD supervisor told me that he hated his ideas (but the PhD 
> >> candidate is allowed to have a different opinion than his supervisor 
> >> ...)
> > As I said, I also hate the idea of anyone even trying to force me to 
> > pledge allegiance to /non-written/, 
> > /non-passed-by-parliaments-nor-referendum/ laws. /Goodwill/? I see the 
> > /will/ -of pro-copyright lobbies-, though I don't see the /good/ in 
> > there -I believe that, where is lack of rules, the strongest prevail ... 
> > and often abuses; and currently pro-copyright lobbies are the strongest 
> > ones here-.
> >
> >
> > 
> > Carlos Ayala
> > 
> > ( Aiarakoa )
> >
> > 
> > Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general