[pp.int.general] [Fwd: Re: Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots]

Thu Jan 15 17:18:00 CET 2009

this was sent last night, for some reason it only went to reinier and 
not to the list (stupid thunderbird) it is this that reinier replied to 
with his 3:17am (CET) mail

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:00:02 -0500
From: Andrew Norton <andrew.norton at pirate-party.us>
Reply-To: Andrew.norton at pirate-party.us
Organization: Pirate Party of the United States
To: Reinier Bakels <r.bakels at pr.unimaas.nl>
References: 
<496E49BB.8030307 at yahoo.es><C7CB867D8ECD472794AE273047130A04 at RBB2008> 
<496E7ED0.5070400 at pirate-party.us> 
<4A556573F30449C2924AEBF3FED7100D at RBB2008>

Reinier Bakels wrote:
> Thx4 your since comments.
> Some preliminary answers.
> First, my schedule simply did not allow me to react earlier.

So, just because you've been 'too busy' (we're ALL busy people) and
finally found time in your schedule for us, we're supposed to drop what
12 people have worked on quite a bit?

> Second, w8&c, the text I have in mind will be less rather than more 
> legalistic. It is difficult, but I sincerely believe one must get 
> directly to the point.

Great, you believe that. We, the many people that actually believed
enough in this to make time, at the appropriate time, and make the
document structured the way we believe it should be done.

> Third, I envisage a political document, not a formal ("legal") statute. 
> It should be an appealing text. The German PP text will serve as an example

A manifesto as an appealing text? the current manifesto document is
fairly appealing. it's just not written as a news article or press
release. We write a press release to go with it, and journalists write
the articles. The structure it's in now, is the proper structure for
this type of document.

> Fourth, should law play a role for a law maker? It my sounds 
> contradictory, but - to make a long story short - yes, in order to 
> prevent statements that will disqualify the PP *immediately* as 
> unrealistic. Imho the challenge is rather to make very nasty proposals 
> that still fit into any conceivable framework.

You're still applying logic, to an area where logic does NOT work.

> Finally, the Dutch PP is close to dead, but I try to involve people from 
> ScriptumLibre. Remmebr that in NL it is relatively easy to found a new 
> political party - so I feel a responsibility.

Well, is it dead, or not? If it's dead, then there's no dutch party to
sign anyway, if it's not dead, then Samir is still the head, no? That's
logic.

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Norton" 
> <andrew.norton at pirate-party.us>
> To: "Pirate Parties International -- General Talk" 
> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots
> 
> 
> Reinier, If you had these concerns with the document, as great as these
> concerns seem to be, why is it that you've waited until now to offer to
> write an alternative. Why didn't you make this offer 3-4 *MONTHS* ago,
> or best of all, turn up to the meetings where the contents were discussed?
> 
> An inverted pyramid format is great for a press release, or news
> article. A manifesto though, is not either. A manifesto is a statement
> of intent, of political positioning that does not require that kind of
> structure. Indeed, look at similar documents, including political
> manifesto's of other parties, and indeed constitution documents. They're
> not in that style.
> 
> You say "if you want to keep NL on board", do you speak for the Dutch
> Pirate Party, for ScriptumLibre or for yourself in this matter? It's
> very hard to tell. As far as I'm aware, since Leon stepped down, Samir's
> in charge of the party, and he is the one the party nominated to deal
> with the manifesto, including voting.
> 
> I've also read most of the emails of the past few weeks - just about
> caught up - and my impression of you, gleamed from your writings, is
> that of a lawyer. We are not dealing with legal cases here, we're
> dealing with policital ones. In court, briefs rely on logic, fact, and a
> touch of persuasiveness. politics is 10% fact, and the rest is appealing
> to emotion. Look at all the anti-terrorism legislation made in the last
> 10 years, or copyright legislation. Thre's little to no facts backing
> them up, and despite that being pointed out a lot, its the emotional
> arguments for the legislation that wins, trampling the fact-based
> arguments against.
> 
> Politics and law might be related, insofar as there are many lawyers in
> politics. However, litigating the law, is radically different from
> trying to get into a position to write them. This is something you don't
> seem to grasp. People are creatures of emotion, so emotion is what we
> have to appeal to.
> 
> To get back on topic, the point of the manifesto is basically a written
> Venn diagram of all our party positions. some don't like it, say 'well
> this isn't going far enough'. Thats the point. If you as a party want to
> go more extreme, they can. This is something that came up with I think
> the Swedish party, that had a point about elimination, where someone
> else had reduction, and didn't like 'reform' as it implied something
> other than elimination. but basically, the intent is that it's a
> straightforward statement of the common level of all parties. And,
> remember Reinier, two 'different' pirate parties have existed in France,
> and Finland, if the Dutch party forks, which is just what happened in
> France, then so be it, the movement will adapt, and grow.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> Reinier Bakels wrote:
>> I will write a different "Manifesto" which will be ready in due time 
>> before the Helsinki meeting (I am now in the US so I don't have much 
>> time to work on it). All three present Manifesto versions start with 
>> an elaborate expose about human rights and democracy. I don't think 
>> that is useful. Firstly, for communication reasons the Manifesto 
>> imnsho must be structured in the "inverted pyramid" format typical for 
>> journalism and advertising. Secondly, the human rights argument is not 
>> the strongest political argument we have for PP objectives, and may 
>> even be construed adversely. For advertising/communication reasons, we 
>> must refrain from arguments that are not 100% solid. Thirdly, I want 
>> to avoid the impression that PP is another state reform party (which 
>> has a very different connotation in different member states).
>> If you want to keep NL on board of the PP movement, please consider my 
>> forthcoming proposal - at least.
>> Finally, this is not an attempt to start another flame war!
>>
>> Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar, 
>> Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, 
>> Yassou, Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kvedja
>>>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
>> private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The 
>> Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 
>> 6490,  fax +31 79 316 7221
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Ayala Vargas" 
>> <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
>> To: "Pirate Parties International -- General Talk" 
>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:23 PM
>> Subject: [pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots
>>
>>
>>> Hello:
>>>
>>> Today and until 23th of January, 2009, in PIRATA we're going to 
>>> decide which of 3 final drafts of Pirate Manifesto do we prefer:
>>>
>>> - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Draft_A
>>> - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Draft_B
>>> - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Draft_C
>>>
>>> How are things regarding Pirate Manifesto in the rest of pirate 
>>> parties? Remember that, in just 2 weeks, we have the Helsinki 
>>> Conference. Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carlos Ayala
>>>
>>> ( Aiarakoa )
>>>
>>>
>>> Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> 
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general