[pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots

[Reinier Bakels]

You assume a structure of "formal" representatives that - as far as The
Netherlands is concerned - does not exist (but I do not disagree with
Samir!). The result of the Manifesto drafting exercise should be inherently
convincing and can not claim formal authority.
My late reaction can easily be interpreted in a unsympathetic way. The fact
of the matter is that I trusted an acceptable result to emerge (from the SE
and DE experience), but the actual result is (for reasons I explained
extensively) imnsho not satisfactory. So I am prepared to help to improve
the text. It is an old rule: don't just complain, help to improve.
reinier
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carlos Ayala Vargas" <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
To: "Pirate Parties International -- General Talk"
<pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots


> Reinier Bakels wrote:
>> Calm down! Neither you nor the people who met each other in Berlin and
>> Uppsala are in a position to set formal requirements for each other (nor
>> reversely, of course!)
> I possitively don't know what are you talking about. Check this page
>
> http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Who
>
> then you'll be able to find pirate parties *representatives* (including
> Samir), *and, of course, the one who represents a party is in position,
> together with the rest of the peers from the rest of pirate parties, to
> set formal requirements* -provided that such representative talks on
> behalf of the party where belongs and that informs that party about the
> conversations held-. Neither Berlin nor Uppsala attendance were
> plenipotentiaries nor representatives -some may have attended, but not all
> of them were-, however the attendance of the Pirate Manifesto
> sessions -except, maybe, of the Helmut/Jens controversy- were actual
> representatives.
>> The end goal is a political movement against threats to information
>> freedom (etc.), and to cooperate as much as possible, but not beyond.
> I think it's not quite easy to cooperate on issues where there is no
> agreement or, at least, not quite much; thus, knowing what do we have in
> common is essential to be able to cooperate and make joint efforts. That
> idea inspired, since 2006's Rick Falkvinge first efforts, the need of that
> common manifesto.
>> Ok, you force me to be explicit. The three manifesto drafts were written
>> just by some of us, because the cooperation was less than pleasant -
>> flame wars - what a coincidence. The end result is just not good enough
>> to win the "war". Now don't blame me for late comments.
> But of course I blame you for late comments. Because it's quite easy to
> not participate in drafting sessions, nor in the amending process -this
> has been a considerably long and fully open process-, only to yell in the
> very end "/stop the press!/". In july 2008 representatives agreed to have
> the Pirate Manifesto ready for the Helsinki Conference, so just in case
> that decision should be reversed, it's not up to you; it's up to the
> pirate parties, and to be expressed through their representatives.
>> I am prepared to help. If the result (yet to be drafted) is not OK, we
>> have schisma in the PP movement.
> Schism does not depend on whether you support or not the approved draft,
> as you are an individual member of one pirate party -which, as far as I
> know, hasn't decided yet which draft to support; and when that party,
> Piraten Partij, decides on which draft does it support (or if doesn't
> support any), Samir will announce it properly to us through the usual
> ways; Samir, not you (as Samir is the Piraten Partij representative, not
> you)-.
>> Congratulations!
> You /congratulate/ me? for that supposed schism? Are you, maybe, putting
> the blame on me for such hypothetical schism? People attending Stage One's
> sessions is aware of my work on consenssus -and I've already talked in
> this list about how I rejected february'08 attempts from some people to
> unilaterally draft the Manifesto: *I think and I always thought the
> Manifesto is meant to be a consenssus text *(understanding consenssus as
> having all or almost all pirate parties supporting the approved draft)*,
> and that was my agenda, one of all pirate parties being considered within
> PPI as peers*-.
>
> So I dismiss your /irony/ and consider it blatantly nonsensical and far
> from the truth. If any schism happens, and comparing schisms with fever,
> the Manifesto wouldn't be the cause of the fever, nor even the fever
> itself, but a mere /thermometer/. However, I hope your forecast becomes
> totally wrong, that all pirate parties cast their opinion on which draft
> do they prefer, and eventually that all or almost all of us can be able to
> agree on the same draft.
>> But I understand why you are urging me to have my draft early: you want
>> to be prepared to block it in Helsinki.
> False, once more. I don't need to block nothing from you: if the pirate
> parties will comes to be having the Manifesto ready to be signed in
> Helsinki -as agreed in july during the Stage One sessions-, then you need
> to have your proposal ready to be showed now; otherwise, there wouldn't be
> enough time to be properly considered and, eventually, voted.
>
> And that, only if pirate parties want to have the Draft ready for
> Helsinki -as agreed in Stage One sessions-. If, however, pirate parties
> changed their mind, Helsinki wouldn't be a problem in that context ...
> however, we would have other problems, as in that case we would concur to
> the EU election without even having clear:
>
> - who we are as a political movement for the international worldwide scope
> - more specifically, which are our common goals for the EU Election, for
> the 2009-14 term -seems quite difficult to create a joint platform and/or
> to coordinate joint efforts without having clear our common goals-
>
> because -and I don't know if you were aware of, Reinier- next PPI
> Conference (probably in Poland, I think it was the existing proposal) is
> scheduled for Summer 2009, *after the EU Election*. Don't you give
> importance to that? I give, representatives who attended Stage One
> sessions gave, and I guess pirate parties still give importance to
> that -as they haven't stated the opposite, as far as I know-.
>
>
>                                                                   Carlos
> Ayala
>
> ( Aiarakoa )
>
>
> Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman
>
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