[pp.int.general] Translation of the Pirate Manifesto

[Reinier Bakels]

>> No, afaik there is not. By the end of 2008, the manifesto "A-B-C" project
>> was abandoned by most contributors after heavy flame wars, and in the end 
>> is
>> really was the project of a single man, Carlos Ayala.
>
> You're mixing some things up, Reinier. The work was NOT that of a
> single man, there were quite a few of us involved in it (don't let a
> little thing like facts get in the way of your statements, Reinier!).
OK, perhaps there were more people involved, behind the scenes. I should 
have added: from the people that turned up at the PP conferences.

> Start with the fact that 11 parties participated in it. The flamewars
> were down to one man though, and that man was you.
Now you are rude. And incorrect. Because I had ben very busy on other 
things, I only got engaged in the "Manifesto" project early this year. Only 
later I understood that several people quit the project last year because of 
flame wars.
>
> You certainly do have the traditional political habit down of
> barefaced lies to boost self-importance. Good for you!
I don't think my own (possible) "importance" is at stake here. I only tried 
to convey information to the Italian who asked questions.
>
>> During the Helsinki
>> meeting early this year, it was *not* discussed at all. Carlos was
>> disappointed, but he was pretty alone.
>
> It was not discussed at all when you were present, to the best of your
> knowledge, is, I believe, a more accurate statement.
I was there during the whole meeting. And from the atmosphere, I think it is 
utterly unlikely that it was discussed "offline".
>
>>
>> The Uppsala document (composed during the summer 2008 meeting) wasn't so
>> much intended as *the* PP "Manifesto", but more the by-product of a (very
>> useful) workshop, a mental exercise to better understand PP goals and
>> strategies.
>>
>> I wrote a one page "PPI Principles" document for the Helsinki meeting 
>> (see
>> attachment), more to provide an alternative than because I believe(d) 
>> that a
>> manifesto was (or is) a priority. We spent little time on it in the 
>> meeting,
>> fortunately. The purpose of a political party is to gain votes, and a
>> "philosophical" documents like a manifesto should be judged from that
>> perspective: does it help to get more votes? As you know, actually
>> deceptively few voters read party programs.
>
> Indeed, the media reads them instead, and issue advocacy groups, and
> then passes on information digested from them.
>
>>
>> I won't repeat here why I believe that the A-B-C manifesto's are not
>> suitable as *the* PP manifesto (else I unleash another flame war, I am
>> afraid).
>
> If by unleash, you mean start, it's likely. Then again, that's what
> comes of faulty, and self-important statements. We know what you
> believe, you unleashed it on this list in voluminous spewed invective,
> much of which had no basis beyond 'you believe'. Since you can't keep,
> or even research facts (such as a basic one like how many were
> involved in the manifesto -
> http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#Who or one of the
> meetings http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_IRC_meeting_20080710
> which had representatives from poland, spain, austria, australia, and
> denmark in it - one man?) your beliefs are worth less and less to me.
>
> Either stick to the truth, or STFU reinier, because I for one am
> getting tired of your lies and bullshit. I doubt I'm the only one.
>
Calm down! If you are disappointed that there is not more support 
(currently) for the "manifesto" project, don't be rude to me.
We can argue a long time how much people supported the "Manifesto" project 
at any point in time, but:
* leading PP people quit in the course of 2008 because of conflicts
* the support and interest in the manifesto's at the Helsini meeting early 
this year was ZERO
* still no choice has made for A, B or C, afaik
* the substance all of the manifesto's suffers from major shortcomings (but 
that is my opinion, as a professional in this field, though)

I see a lot of people working very actively in the PPI movement on important 
social issues. The Manifesto project is more a theoretical endeavour. In vew 
of last years exepriences, it will be cumbersome. And error prone. I believe 
that there are other priorities. And I gave my opinion on that, to the 
Italian who didn't have a clue. But now I understand that I frustrate your 
ambition to revive the Manifesto project. If people are prepared to invest 
the time, let them go ahead. This is an organisation of volunteers.

But please be careful with human rights claims! There are human rights 
advocates who say:
* People have the right of pervasive camera surveillance, to project their 
"integrity" (a human right)
* authors are entitled to comprehensive compensation for all their work
* massive data retention is only appropriate to protect citizens against 
terrorist attacks
* and to protect the shareholder value of record companies that suffers 
because of massive downloading - human rights protect property rights
There is no *human rights* argument that they are wrong!
reinier