[pp.int.general] Translation of the Pirate Manifesto

[Andrew Norton]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Reinier Bakels <r.bakels at planet.nl> wrote:
> Andrew, if you want to tell me that you HATE me, go ahead, but do it offline
> and don't bother the entire list.

I don't hate you. I hate it when people make statements that are at
odds with the facts. It just so happens, that the majority of your
statements fall into that category. Call it a failing, but I've got
this irrational urge to shout out and highlight bullshit whenever I
hear it. In this thread you've stated as fact things which are not,
and have not been facts on at least 4 occasions (people leaving the
project, that it was the work of one person (which contradicts the
other lie), the approximate time of your first invovlement, and what
the first email even said).

>
> The only thing of interest to the list is how to proceed with the Manifesto
> project.

You have repeatedly stated, over the last year that you have no wish
to see any manifesto ever produced. You reiterated that in an email of
4 days ago in this thread, that, in your opinion, a manifesto should
NEVER be done.

>
> Please explain (not to me, to the list) whether and how you want to proceed
> with this project.

When did this become about me wanting to proceed with the project.?

It started out as someone from the Italian party wanting to know how
best to translate a section of one of the drafts. You first then used
it to attempt a personal attack on Carlos ("As far as I know, the
manifesto "C" you refer to is pretty much the work of a single man,
last year, who qarreled with everybody else.") based on a lie. It then
mutated into 'no-one at one meeting was interested, except carlos, so
it was clearly worthless', to 'human rights arguments are worthless,
and dangerous, because anyone can make an argument involving human
rights'.

>
> If you really don't want criticism, OK. Then we know were we stand.
>

Last time you were critisised, you started personal attacks. You have
attacked Carlos, you have attacked me. It seems it is you that does
not like criticism. Every time your factually incorrect statements are
pointed out to you, you attempt to wiggle out with more lies,
half-truthes or plain old irrelevent crap.

You linked in your PPI statement of principles (also never adopted, or
even formally presented, and so falsely named) earlier, and I have to
say I love number 4
"4. Pirate Parties should foster the highest level of political
ethics. Their opinions may (and will) be considered unusual, but
should always be seen as reasonable, realistic, and "decent". Ethics
are an important asset against opponents who do not observe ethics, or
make false ethics claims."

At no point have you shown even the SLIGHTEST regard for ethics. you
have lied, and slandered people. You have sought quarrels, you have
attempted to deceive, and you have attempted to push your own ideas
and beliefs on others despite it being repeatedly pointed out to you
that counterfactual. I told Samir a week or so ago, that I didn't
really care if people consider me a bastard, arrogant, stubborn or
mean, as long as at the same time they add the word 'integrity'. If I
am wrong, I will admit it. If I make a statement not supported by the
evidence, I will correct it. Ethics and integrity go hand in hand. If
you don't have good personal integrity, how can you really be ethical?
You had one of your errors pointed out to you by THREE different
people, and you never once acknowledged you made a mistake. In fact,
you went on and repeated the same lie the next day!

You fail in your own standards for behavour. You have no integrity, no
political ethics.

> But I will definitely voice my opinion if and when someone publishes a
> manifesto as The PP Manifesto, because that will affect the entire movement.

Indeed it will, and that's why the project involved people from each
national party, including the party in your country of residence, in
the form of Samir, and from the apparantlly totally disinterested
Swedish party, in the form of Amelia (it's in the records, I'd suggest
checking them, but if nothing else, this thread has shown your
COMPLETE disregard for little things like facts; and your complete
disregard for ethics. The question thus remains, Why are you still
here, and why do you think you have anything we should listen to? I
just went and checked this thread, and counted 20 factual errors. When
you consider you've only written 12 emails on this thread, that's
pretty troubling. That is better than 1.5 factual inaccuracies an
email.

Oh, and I'd also just love to address this statement of yours from 2 days ago
"My presumption was that people who take the trouble to travel to
Helsinki in de mid of the winter carry some weight."
I for one would love to have gone. The problem was I don't happen to
ahve the 575 Euros the flight alone would have cost (thats about the
cheapest I can find for Atlanta-Helsinki), or 1285 Euros from
Melbourne ( Amsterdam-Helsinki was 219 for the same days!). I wish I
had 500 Euros around, but not all of us have the independent wealth
you've boasted of, Reinier. In fact, most of us have poured what money
we have into this. Rick had to go 'crowd-funded' a month before the
meeting for this reason. We all would have taken the *trouble* to do
it, if many of us had the resources to do it.

At the same time, it seemed that attending the meeting wasn't a
priority, since well, to put it bluntly, nothing ever actually got
done, and what little was done, was never carried through. Perhaps
that's why so many didn't go to the trouble. How much of what was
suggested and 'decided on' in Berlin, or even Vienna has actually been
put into practice? Very little. Oh, and another reason might be
because of the lateness of the announcement. It was originally
supposed to be held in St Petersburg. but when we lost contact with
the Russian party, I had to come up with an alternative. It wasn't
sorted until mid-december, which is short notice for a lot of us with
kids, or jobs.

Lets hope the Brussels meeting can buck this trend of talks that
ultimately do nothing.

Overall, let's stick to one thing Reinier, and that's the TRUTH. Not
what you think might be the truth, not what your opinion of the truth
is, just the plain facts of the truth. You'll find everyone gets a lot
more done when you do that (and people might actually respect some of
what you say)

Andrew