[pp.int.general] Greens saying Pirate Parties unnecessary

Alex Foti alex.foti at gmail.com
Tue Sep 15 15:44:31 CEST 2009 

no, you don't understand zilch. greens are greens and pirates are
pirates, but eurogreens are not saying that pirates aren't necessary.
Of course nobody wants to lose votes to a new party, but using a
canadian green's statement to construct a european position is kinda
ridiculous. Pirate parties have been made necessary by the assault on
fundamental freedoms. Where pirates need allies, greens are usually
the best bet. ciao, lx

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Eric Priezkalns
<eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
> I'm bemused.  I thought that asking Pirates to make an argument for the need
> for separate Pirate Parties would be straightforward.  Instead we're getting
> arguments for why there is no need for separate Pirate Parties!
>
> This makes me wonder if the PPI won't be making any positive arguments for
> the need for separate Pirate Parties to compete in elections - a rather
> amazing conclusion and I hope I am proven wrong.  Note what I am asking is
> not to argue for the policies, but for the parties.  Why do the parties need
> to exist?  If the policies can be delivered without the parties, as the
> Greens suggest, that undermines the argument for forming the parties and
> fielding candidates that compete with the Greens and all other rivals.  The
> Green attack is straightforward - the pirate policies are good, but the
> Pirate Parties are unnecessary.  And this argument is not just being made in
> Canada, but in many countries.
>
> If the purpose of the PPI is to represent pirate policies, but not Pirate
> Parties, it has very little reason to exist.  Somebody needs to do the
> important work of handling and countering propaganda from rival parties, and
> that includes rival parties that say they agree with our policies but
> question our political strategy.  If not done by the PPI, this will still
> need to be done.  The difference is that it will be done only by the
> national parties who field the candidates and have to live in the real world
> where Pirates will compete with all rival parties, including the Greens.  I
> don't want to see Pirates fighting Pirates because a Green Party in one
> country points at a Swedish MEP and says - "look, he sits with the Greens,
> so he supports all the policies of the Greens".  It would be better that the
> argument for Pirate Parties be coordinated internationally to avoid causing
> difficulties between Pirate Parties in different countries.
>
> E
>
> On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:53, Alex Foti wrote:
>
>> your subject should've been more correctly titled "Canadian Greens
>> saying Pirate Parties unnecessary", because a cursory reading makes it
>> look like Cohn-Bendit or some other prominent greens said that. Also,
>> climate change is a pretty big issue and I don't really see how greens
>> would compromise pirate rights for climate justice. In general, I have
>> a hard time thinking of an eco-issue where there's a tradeoff between
>> environmental needs and rights of expression (maybe it's my lack of
>> imagination). Finally, it's telling that Benkler in The Wealth of
>> Networks brands as greens the group embracing a sharing philosophy of
>> p2p production, as distinct from the blues embracing strong public
>> domain coupled with copyright law, and the reds favoring market
>> copyrighted solutions always (in the US, democrats are blue and
>> republicans are red).
>>
>> ciao and solidarity to german pirates beaten by police,
>>
>> lx
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Eric Priezkalns
>> <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jamie,
>>>
>>> I don't understand your point.  The Canadians and other Green parties say
>>> there is no need for a Pirate Party because they have the relevant
>>> policies
>>> already.  You respond by saying this is not just propaganda - does that
>>> mean
>>> you don't think there is a need for a Pirate Party?  When other parties
>>> say
>>> they have green policies, do the Greens say "look, they have green
>>> policies
>>> - we don't need to exist"?  My question wasn't about whether people have
>>> a
>>> nice fuzzy feeling about the Greens deep down in their soul or whether we
>>> think the Greens are run by lovely people with their hearts in the right
>>> place when it comes to intellectual property.  It was about how they are
>>> using propaganda to hurt the Pirate Parties and asking how the Pirate
>>> Parties intend to respond.  Either the response is collective at
>>> international level, or it will have to be done at national level,
>>> because
>>> somebody has to respond.  Green candidates are going to compete with
>>> Pirate
>>> candidates for the same votes.  If Green Parties say there is no need for
>>> Pirate Parties and point to the European Parliament as evidence, the
>>> correct
>>> answer from a Pirate Party spokesperson or candidate cannot be to simply
>>> comment on what a good job the Greens would do if they were elected
>>> instead
>>> of the Pirate Party's candidate.
>>>
>>> E
>>>
>>>
>>> On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:07, jamie king wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't say it's just propaganda. The uk Greens showed 'STEAL THIS
>>>> FILM II' at their conference last year -- so I guess even before
>>>> Pirate Party looked more viable, they were thinking about these
>>>> issues. Just saying.
>>>>
>>>> j
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Eric Priezkalns
>>>> <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a snip from an interview with the leader of the Greens in
>>>>> Canada,
>>>>> Elizabeth May.  The full interview is
>>>>> here: http://www.p2pnet.net/story/28206
>>>>> "p2pnet: What do you think of Pirate Parties and the fact it looks as
>>>>> though
>>>>> Canada and soon join other countries in having one of its own?
>>>>> May: Did you notice that the Pirate Party in the EU Parliament has
>>>>> joined
>>>>> the Green Caucus?  We don’t need a pirate party in Canada. The greens
>>>>> are
>>>>> championing those issues. We shouldn’t further fracture the efforts of
>>>>> Canadians who want to restore real democracy, including in undemocratic
>>>>> copyright rules."
>>>>> Elizabeth May has previously said similar things in an attempt to
>>>>> undermine
>>>>> the Pirate Party of Canada.  We've got 'Green Pirates' trying to win
>>>>> new
>>>>> votes for the Green party in mainland Europe.  In the UK, similar
>>>>> things
>>>>> are
>>>>> starting to happen, with the Green Party attempting to undermine Pirate
>>>>> Party support because they see it as a threat.
>>>>> Who is taking the lead to counter Green Party propaganda, publicly
>>>>> saying
>>>>> there is a need for a separate Pirate Party movement?  If it is not
>>>>> coordinated internationally, than national parties will have no choice
>>>>> but
>>>>> to fight back individually to stop votes, members and support being
>>>>> lost
>>>>> to
>>>>> the Green Party.
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Eric
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric Priezkalns
>>>>> Treasurer
>>>>> Pirate Party UK
>>>>> +44 7958 467273
>>>>> treasurer at pirateparty.org.uk
>>>>> http://pirateparty.org.uk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>> ____________________________________________________
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>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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> ____________________________________________________
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> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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