[pp.int.general] Greens saying Pirate Parties unnecessary
Eric Priezkalns
eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk
Tue Sep 15 16:33:31 CEST 2009
Thanks Alex, for pointing out I understand zilch. I hope you won't be
speaking to voters, if this is how you deal with me.
As I pointed out in my original email, there are Greens in Europe
saying and doing similar things to the Canadians - saying that the
Pirate Party is unnecessary and people should vote Green instead. I'm
not alone in noticing this. You seem to prefer a make-believe that
two separate political parties can exist without competing for the
same voters. I'm asking that the party deals with this instead of
living in a fantasy or doing nothing whilst rivals take the initiative.
You seem to confuse two different things - that parties need to
compete for votes in elections but that their representatives need to
work together after they are elected. I'm talking about competing
with the Greens for votes. When you say "where pirates need allies,
greens are usually the best bet", what are you talking about? When
you campaign to get Pirate Party votes, what will you tell people who
say they will vote Green instead because they don't see a need to have
a Pirate Party? Will you tell them they are making the right
decision? Will you politely explain why a vote for the Pirate Party
is better than voting Green? Or will you just be rude to them and
hope that will have the right effect?
Making the argument for separate Pirate Parties is vital for our
success. We cannot just make the argument for the policies, because
rivals can jump on the bandwagon for popular pirate policies, whilst
undermining the actual Pirate Parties.
So please, cut the rudeness and focus on the question: who in the PPI
is doing what to make the argument that we really need separate Pirate
Parties. I just wanted to hear what the PPI is doing and how it will
coordinate with national campaign efforts (that is the purpose of the
PPI, isn't it?) If you're not doing it, then fine - be quiet and let
somebody else say if they are doing something or if they plan to do
something.
E
On 15 Sep 2009, at 14:44, Alex Foti wrote:
> no, you don't understand zilch. greens are greens and pirates are
> pirates, but eurogreens are not saying that pirates aren't necessary.
> Of course nobody wants to lose votes to a new party, but using a
> canadian green's statement to construct a european position is kinda
> ridiculous. Pirate parties have been made necessary by the assault on
> fundamental freedoms. Where pirates need allies, greens are usually
> the best bet. ciao, lx
>
> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Eric Priezkalns
> <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
>> I'm bemused. I thought that asking Pirates to make an argument for
>> the need
>> for separate Pirate Parties would be straightforward. Instead
>> we're getting
>> arguments for why there is no need for separate Pirate Parties!
>>
>> This makes me wonder if the PPI won't be making any positive
>> arguments for
>> the need for separate Pirate Parties to compete in elections - a
>> rather
>> amazing conclusion and I hope I am proven wrong. Note what I am
>> asking is
>> not to argue for the policies, but for the parties. Why do the
>> parties need
>> to exist? If the policies can be delivered without the parties, as
>> the
>> Greens suggest, that undermines the argument for forming the
>> parties and
>> fielding candidates that compete with the Greens and all other
>> rivals. The
>> Green attack is straightforward - the pirate policies are good, but
>> the
>> Pirate Parties are unnecessary. And this argument is not just
>> being made in
>> Canada, but in many countries.
>>
>> If the purpose of the PPI is to represent pirate policies, but not
>> Pirate
>> Parties, it has very little reason to exist. Somebody needs to do
>> the
>> important work of handling and countering propaganda from rival
>> parties, and
>> that includes rival parties that say they agree with our policies but
>> question our political strategy. If not done by the PPI, this will
>> still
>> need to be done. The difference is that it will be done only by the
>> national parties who field the candidates and have to live in the
>> real world
>> where Pirates will compete with all rival parties, including the
>> Greens. I
>> don't want to see Pirates fighting Pirates because a Green Party in
>> one
>> country points at a Swedish MEP and says - "look, he sits with the
>> Greens,
>> so he supports all the policies of the Greens". It would be better
>> that the
>> argument for Pirate Parties be coordinated internationally to avoid
>> causing
>> difficulties between Pirate Parties in different countries.
>>
>> E
>>
>> On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:53, Alex Foti wrote:
>>
>>> your subject should've been more correctly titled "Canadian Greens
>>> saying Pirate Parties unnecessary", because a cursory reading
>>> makes it
>>> look like Cohn-Bendit or some other prominent greens said that.
>>> Also,
>>> climate change is a pretty big issue and I don't really see how
>>> greens
>>> would compromise pirate rights for climate justice. In general, I
>>> have
>>> a hard time thinking of an eco-issue where there's a tradeoff
>>> between
>>> environmental needs and rights of expression (maybe it's my lack of
>>> imagination). Finally, it's telling that Benkler in The Wealth of
>>> Networks brands as greens the group embracing a sharing philosophy
>>> of
>>> p2p production, as distinct from the blues embracing strong public
>>> domain coupled with copyright law, and the reds favoring market
>>> copyrighted solutions always (in the US, democrats are blue and
>>> republicans are red).
>>>
>>> ciao and solidarity to german pirates beaten by police,
>>>
>>> lx
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Eric Priezkalns
>>> <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jamie,
>>>>
>>>> I don't understand your point. The Canadians and other Green
>>>> parties say
>>>> there is no need for a Pirate Party because they have the relevant
>>>> policies
>>>> already. You respond by saying this is not just propaganda -
>>>> does that
>>>> mean
>>>> you don't think there is a need for a Pirate Party? When other
>>>> parties
>>>> say
>>>> they have green policies, do the Greens say "look, they have green
>>>> policies
>>>> - we don't need to exist"? My question wasn't about whether
>>>> people have
>>>> a
>>>> nice fuzzy feeling about the Greens deep down in their soul or
>>>> whether we
>>>> think the Greens are run by lovely people with their hearts in
>>>> the right
>>>> place when it comes to intellectual property. It was about how
>>>> they are
>>>> using propaganda to hurt the Pirate Parties and asking how the
>>>> Pirate
>>>> Parties intend to respond. Either the response is collective at
>>>> international level, or it will have to be done at national level,
>>>> because
>>>> somebody has to respond. Green candidates are going to compete
>>>> with
>>>> Pirate
>>>> candidates for the same votes. If Green Parties say there is no
>>>> need for
>>>> Pirate Parties and point to the European Parliament as evidence,
>>>> the
>>>> correct
>>>> answer from a Pirate Party spokesperson or candidate cannot be to
>>>> simply
>>>> comment on what a good job the Greens would do if they were elected
>>>> instead
>>>> of the Pirate Party's candidate.
>>>>
>>>> E
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:07, jamie king wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't say it's just propaganda. The uk Greens showed 'STEAL
>>>>> THIS
>>>>> FILM II' at their conference last year -- so I guess even before
>>>>> Pirate Party looked more viable, they were thinking about these
>>>>> issues. Just saying.
>>>>>
>>>>> j
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Eric Priezkalns
>>>>> <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a snip from an interview with the leader of the Greens in
>>>>>> Canada,
>>>>>> Elizabeth May. The full interview is
>>>>>> here: http://www.p2pnet.net/story/28206
>>>>>> "p2pnet: What do you think of Pirate Parties and the fact it
>>>>>> looks as
>>>>>> though
>>>>>> Canada and soon join other countries in having one of its own?
>>>>>> May: Did you notice that the Pirate Party in the EU Parliament
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> joined
>>>>>> the Green Caucus? We don’t need a pirate party in Canada. The
>>>>>> greens
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> championing those issues. We shouldn’t further fracture the
>>>>>> efforts of
>>>>>> Canadians who want to restore real democracy, including in
>>>>>> undemocratic
>>>>>> copyright rules."
>>>>>> Elizabeth May has previously said similar things in an attempt to
>>>>>> undermine
>>>>>> the Pirate Party of Canada. We've got 'Green Pirates' trying
>>>>>> to win
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> votes for the Green party in mainland Europe. In the UK, similar
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> starting to happen, with the Green Party attempting to
>>>>>> undermine Pirate
>>>>>> Party support because they see it as a threat.
>>>>>> Who is taking the lead to counter Green Party propaganda,
>>>>>> publicly
>>>>>> saying
>>>>>> there is a need for a separate Pirate Party movement? If it is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> coordinated internationally, than national parties will have no
>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> to fight back individually to stop votes, members and support
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> lost
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the Green Party.
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric Priezkalns
>>>>>> Treasurer
>>>>>> Pirate Party UK
>>>>>> +44 7958 467273
>>>>>> treasurer at pirateparty.org.uk
>>>>>> http://pirateparty.org.uk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>> ____________________________________________________
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>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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> ____________________________________________________
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