[pp.int.general] Greens saying Pirate Parties unnecessary
jamie king
jamie at jamie.com
Tue Sep 15 16:42:24 CEST 2009
Actually I can back Eric up. I happened to be at a wedding with a
prominent German Green two or three days ago, who definitely thought
the Pirate Party was irrelevant.
Cheers,
J
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Eric Priezkalns
<eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
> Thanks Alex, for pointing out I understand zilch. I hope you won't be
> speaking to voters, if this is how you deal with me.
>
> As I pointed out in my original email, there are Greens in Europe saying and
> doing similar things to the Canadians - saying that the Pirate Party is
> unnecessary and people should vote Green instead. I'm not alone in noticing
> this. You seem to prefer a make-believe that two separate political parties
> can exist without competing for the same voters. I'm asking that the party
> deals with this instead of living in a fantasy or doing nothing whilst
> rivals take the initiative.
>
> You seem to confuse two different things - that parties need to compete for
> votes in elections but that their representatives need to work together
> after they are elected. I'm talking about competing with the Greens for
> votes. When you say "where pirates need allies, greens are usually the best
> bet", what are you talking about? When you campaign to get Pirate Party
> votes, what will you tell people who say they will vote Green instead
> because they don't see a need to have a Pirate Party? Will you tell them
> they are making the right decision? Will you politely explain why a vote
> for the Pirate Party is better than voting Green? Or will you just be rude
> to them and hope that will have the right effect?
>
> Making the argument for separate Pirate Parties is vital for our success.
> We cannot just make the argument for the policies, because rivals can jump
> on the bandwagon for popular pirate policies, whilst undermining the actual
> Pirate Parties.
>
> So please, cut the rudeness and focus on the question: who in the PPI is
> doing what to make the argument that we really need separate Pirate Parties.
> I just wanted to hear what the PPI is doing and how it will coordinate with
> national campaign efforts (that is the purpose of the PPI, isn't it?) If
> you're not doing it, then fine - be quiet and let somebody else say if they
> are doing something or if they plan to do something.
>
> E
>
>
> On 15 Sep 2009, at 14:44, Alex Foti wrote:
>
>> no, you don't understand zilch. greens are greens and pirates are
>> pirates, but eurogreens are not saying that pirates aren't necessary.
>> Of course nobody wants to lose votes to a new party, but using a
>> canadian green's statement to construct a european position is kinda
>> ridiculous. Pirate parties have been made necessary by the assault on
>> fundamental freedoms. Where pirates need allies, greens are usually
>> the best bet. ciao, lx
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Eric Priezkalns
>> <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm bemused. I thought that asking Pirates to make an argument for the
>>> need
>>> for separate Pirate Parties would be straightforward. Instead we're
>>> getting
>>> arguments for why there is no need for separate Pirate Parties!
>>>
>>> This makes me wonder if the PPI won't be making any positive arguments
>>> for
>>> the need for separate Pirate Parties to compete in elections - a rather
>>> amazing conclusion and I hope I am proven wrong. Note what I am asking
>>> is
>>> not to argue for the policies, but for the parties. Why do the parties
>>> need
>>> to exist? If the policies can be delivered without the parties, as the
>>> Greens suggest, that undermines the argument for forming the parties and
>>> fielding candidates that compete with the Greens and all other rivals.
>>> The
>>> Green attack is straightforward - the pirate policies are good, but the
>>> Pirate Parties are unnecessary. And this argument is not just being made
>>> in
>>> Canada, but in many countries.
>>>
>>> If the purpose of the PPI is to represent pirate policies, but not Pirate
>>> Parties, it has very little reason to exist. Somebody needs to do the
>>> important work of handling and countering propaganda from rival parties,
>>> and
>>> that includes rival parties that say they agree with our policies but
>>> question our political strategy. If not done by the PPI, this will still
>>> need to be done. The difference is that it will be done only by the
>>> national parties who field the candidates and have to live in the real
>>> world
>>> where Pirates will compete with all rival parties, including the Greens.
>>> I
>>> don't want to see Pirates fighting Pirates because a Green Party in one
>>> country points at a Swedish MEP and says - "look, he sits with the
>>> Greens,
>>> so he supports all the policies of the Greens". It would be better that
>>> the
>>> argument for Pirate Parties be coordinated internationally to avoid
>>> causing
>>> difficulties between Pirate Parties in different countries.
>>>
>>> E
>>>
>>> On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:53, Alex Foti wrote:
>>>
>>>> your subject should've been more correctly titled "Canadian Greens
>>>> saying Pirate Parties unnecessary", because a cursory reading makes it
>>>> look like Cohn-Bendit or some other prominent greens said that. Also,
>>>> climate change is a pretty big issue and I don't really see how greens
>>>> would compromise pirate rights for climate justice. In general, I have
>>>> a hard time thinking of an eco-issue where there's a tradeoff between
>>>> environmental needs and rights of expression (maybe it's my lack of
>>>> imagination). Finally, it's telling that Benkler in The Wealth of
>>>> Networks brands as greens the group embracing a sharing philosophy of
>>>> p2p production, as distinct from the blues embracing strong public
>>>> domain coupled with copyright law, and the reds favoring market
>>>> copyrighted solutions always (in the US, democrats are blue and
>>>> republicans are red).
>>>>
>>>> ciao and solidarity to german pirates beaten by police,
>>>>
>>>> lx
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Eric Priezkalns
>>>> <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Jamie,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't understand your point. The Canadians and other Green parties
>>>>> say
>>>>> there is no need for a Pirate Party because they have the relevant
>>>>> policies
>>>>> already. You respond by saying this is not just propaganda - does that
>>>>> mean
>>>>> you don't think there is a need for a Pirate Party? When other parties
>>>>> say
>>>>> they have green policies, do the Greens say "look, they have green
>>>>> policies
>>>>> - we don't need to exist"? My question wasn't about whether people
>>>>> have
>>>>> a
>>>>> nice fuzzy feeling about the Greens deep down in their soul or whether
>>>>> we
>>>>> think the Greens are run by lovely people with their hearts in the
>>>>> right
>>>>> place when it comes to intellectual property. It was about how they
>>>>> are
>>>>> using propaganda to hurt the Pirate Parties and asking how the Pirate
>>>>> Parties intend to respond. Either the response is collective at
>>>>> international level, or it will have to be done at national level,
>>>>> because
>>>>> somebody has to respond. Green candidates are going to compete with
>>>>> Pirate
>>>>> candidates for the same votes. If Green Parties say there is no need
>>>>> for
>>>>> Pirate Parties and point to the European Parliament as evidence, the
>>>>> correct
>>>>> answer from a Pirate Party spokesperson or candidate cannot be to
>>>>> simply
>>>>> comment on what a good job the Greens would do if they were elected
>>>>> instead
>>>>> of the Pirate Party's candidate.
>>>>>
>>>>> E
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:07, jamie king wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I wouldn't say it's just propaganda. The uk Greens showed 'STEAL THIS
>>>>>> FILM II' at their conference last year -- so I guess even before
>>>>>> Pirate Party looked more viable, they were thinking about these
>>>>>> issues. Just saying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> j
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Eric Priezkalns
>>>>>> <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a snip from an interview with the leader of the Greens in
>>>>>>> Canada,
>>>>>>> Elizabeth May. The full interview is
>>>>>>> here: http://www.p2pnet.net/story/28206
>>>>>>> "p2pnet: What do you think of Pirate Parties and the fact it looks as
>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>> Canada and soon join other countries in having one of its own?
>>>>>>> May: Did you notice that the Pirate Party in the EU Parliament has
>>>>>>> joined
>>>>>>> the Green Caucus? We don’t need a pirate party in Canada. The greens
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> championing those issues. We shouldn’t further fracture the efforts
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> Canadians who want to restore real democracy, including in
>>>>>>> undemocratic
>>>>>>> copyright rules."
>>>>>>> Elizabeth May has previously said similar things in an attempt to
>>>>>>> undermine
>>>>>>> the Pirate Party of Canada. We've got 'Green Pirates' trying to win
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> votes for the Green party in mainland Europe. In the UK, similar
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> starting to happen, with the Green Party attempting to undermine
>>>>>>> Pirate
>>>>>>> Party support because they see it as a threat.
>>>>>>> Who is taking the lead to counter Green Party propaganda, publicly
>>>>>>> saying
>>>>>>> there is a need for a separate Pirate Party movement? If it is not
>>>>>>> coordinated internationally, than national parties will have no
>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> to fight back individually to stop votes, members and support being
>>>>>>> lost
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the Green Party.
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eric Priezkalns
>>>>>>> Treasurer
>>>>>>> Pirate Party UK
>>>>>>> +44 7958 467273
>>>>>>> treasurer at pirateparty.org.uk
>>>>>>> http://pirateparty.org.uk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________________
>>>>>> asynchronous
>>>>>>
>>>>>> twitter [personal] - @jamie_jk occasional blog --
>>>>>> jamie.com
>>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
--
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
location BERLIN
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twitter: #dark_fibre #vodo #fringy
_______________________________________________________
phone (for voice calls please consider any time difference)
Local landline: + 49 30 657 99496
UK: + 44 20 8133 7673
_______________________________________________________
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gtalk -- jk.jamie at gmail.com / iChat/AIM -- iamth30th3r
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