[pp.int.general] Greens saying Pirate Parties unnecessary

Mårten Fjällström marten.fjallstrom at piratpartiet.se
Tue Sep 15 15:51:42 CEST 2009 

The greens (and others) have in many countries held the right position,
but not prioritised the issues. Not because there is a direct trade off
but because they have limited power, and choosing between on one hand
getting a new train/less emissions/harder chemical legislation and on
the other civil rights they generally focus on the former.

The swedish pirate party choose the green group in the EP because (and
feel free to quote me on this if needed):
a) it was one of the groups that held the right positions
b) they were the group that offered to put most resources on the issues

Thus without the pirate party the greens in the EP would have put less
resources and thus lower priority on these issues. It is not enough to
hold the right opinions, an opinion not acted on is an opinion denied.
And that would be my answer to the greens in Canada or anyone else.

Practically I would say that we will have to fight this fight in every
country, because politics are at the end of the day local. I note that
the Pirate party in Canada has reached more or less the second step of
the Gandhi scale, where you are no longer ignored but rather ridiculed.
Or in this case declared unnecessary. That is good work, use the attacks
to your advantage, if the Greens argue this in some part of the
mainstream media, contact the journalist and try to get a rebuttal in
the same paper/tv/radio. (Journalists loves conflicts, it makes great
stories).

(The last Gandhi steps are where they fight you, and then you win.)
 
Regards,
Mårten Fjällström
Party secretary, piratpartiet

On Tue, 2009-09-15 at 14:29 +0100, Eric Priezkalns wrote:
> I'm bemused.  I thought that asking Pirates to make an argument for  
> the need for separate Pirate Parties would be straightforward.   
> Instead we're getting arguments for why there is no need for separate  
> Pirate Parties!
> 
> This makes me wonder if the PPI won't be making any positive arguments  
> for the need for separate Pirate Parties to compete in elections - a  
> rather amazing conclusion and I hope I am proven wrong.  Note what I  
> am asking is not to argue for the policies, but for the parties.  Why  
> do the parties need to exist?  If the policies can be delivered  
> without the parties, as the Greens suggest, that undermines the  
> argument for forming the parties and fielding candidates that compete  
> with the Greens and all other rivals.  The Green attack is  
> straightforward - the pirate policies are good, but the Pirate Parties  
> are unnecessary.  And this argument is not just being made in Canada,  
> but in many countries.
> 
> If the purpose of the PPI is to represent pirate policies, but not  
> Pirate Parties, it has very little reason to exist.  Somebody needs to  
> do the important work of handling and countering propaganda from rival  
> parties, and that includes rival parties that say they agree with our  
> policies but question our political strategy.  If not done by the PPI,  
> this will still need to be done.  The difference is that it will be  
> done only by the national parties who field the candidates and have to  
> live in the real world where Pirates will compete with all rival  
> parties, including the Greens.  I don't want to see Pirates fighting  
> Pirates because a Green Party in one country points at a Swedish MEP  
> and says - "look, he sits with the Greens, so he supports all the  
> policies of the Greens".  It would be better that the argument for  
> Pirate Parties be coordinated internationally to avoid causing  
> difficulties between Pirate Parties in different countries.
> 
> E
> 
> On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:53, Alex Foti wrote:
> 
> > your subject should've been more correctly titled "Canadian Greens
> > saying Pirate Parties unnecessary", because a cursory reading makes it
> > look like Cohn-Bendit or some other prominent greens said that. Also,
> > climate change is a pretty big issue and I don't really see how greens
> > would compromise pirate rights for climate justice. In general, I have
> > a hard time thinking of an eco-issue where there's a tradeoff between
> > environmental needs and rights of expression (maybe it's my lack of
> > imagination). Finally, it's telling that Benkler in The Wealth of
> > Networks brands as greens the group embracing a sharing philosophy of
> > p2p production, as distinct from the blues embracing strong public
> > domain coupled with copyright law, and the reds favoring market
> > copyrighted solutions always (in the US, democrats are blue and
> > republicans are red).
> >
> > ciao and solidarity to german pirates beaten by police,
> >
> > lx
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Eric Priezkalns
> > <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
> >> Jamie,
> >>
> >> I don't understand your point.  The Canadians and other Green  
> >> parties say
> >> there is no need for a Pirate Party because they have the relevant  
> >> policies
> >> already.  You respond by saying this is not just propaganda - does  
> >> that mean
> >> you don't think there is a need for a Pirate Party?  When other  
> >> parties say
> >> they have green policies, do the Greens say "look, they have green  
> >> policies
> >> - we don't need to exist"?  My question wasn't about whether people  
> >> have a
> >> nice fuzzy feeling about the Greens deep down in their soul or  
> >> whether we
> >> think the Greens are run by lovely people with their hearts in the  
> >> right
> >> place when it comes to intellectual property.  It was about how  
> >> they are
> >> using propaganda to hurt the Pirate Parties and asking how the Pirate
> >> Parties intend to respond.  Either the response is collective at
> >> international level, or it will have to be done at national level,  
> >> because
> >> somebody has to respond.  Green candidates are going to compete  
> >> with Pirate
> >> candidates for the same votes.  If Green Parties say there is no  
> >> need for
> >> Pirate Parties and point to the European Parliament as evidence,  
> >> the correct
> >> answer from a Pirate Party spokesperson or candidate cannot be to  
> >> simply
> >> comment on what a good job the Greens would do if they were elected  
> >> instead
> >> of the Pirate Party's candidate.
> >>
> >> E
> >>
> >>
> >> On 15 Sep 2009, at 13:07, jamie king wrote:
> >>
> >>> I wouldn't say it's just propaganda. The uk Greens showed 'STEAL  
> >>> THIS
> >>> FILM II' at their conference last year -- so I guess even before
> >>> Pirate Party looked more viable, they were thinking about these
> >>> issues. Just saying.
> >>>
> >>> j
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Eric Priezkalns
> >>> <eric.priezkalns at pirateparty.org.uk> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> This is a snip from an interview with the leader of the Greens in  
> >>>> Canada,
> >>>> Elizabeth May.  The full interview is
> >>>> here: http://www.p2pnet.net/story/28206
> >>>> "p2pnet: What do you think of Pirate Parties and the fact it  
> >>>> looks as
> >>>> though
> >>>> Canada and soon join other countries in having one of its own?
> >>>> May: Did you notice that the Pirate Party in the EU Parliament  
> >>>> has joined
> >>>> the Green Caucus?  We don’t need a pirate party in Canada. The  
> >>>> greens are
> >>>> championing those issues. We shouldn’t further fracture the  
> >>>> efforts of
> >>>> Canadians who want to restore real democracy, including in  
> >>>> undemocratic
> >>>> copyright rules."
> >>>> Elizabeth May has previously said similar things in an attempt to
> >>>> undermine
> >>>> the Pirate Party of Canada.  We've got 'Green Pirates' trying to  
> >>>> win new
> >>>> votes for the Green party in mainland Europe.  In the UK, similar  
> >>>> things
> >>>> are
> >>>> starting to happen, with the Green Party attempting to undermine  
> >>>> Pirate
> >>>> Party support because they see it as a threat.
> >>>> Who is taking the lead to counter Green Party propaganda,  
> >>>> publicly saying
> >>>> there is a need for a separate Pirate Party movement?  If it is not
> >>>> coordinated internationally, than national parties will have no  
> >>>> choice
> >>>> but
> >>>> to fight back individually to stop votes, members and support  
> >>>> being lost
> >>>> to
> >>>> the Green Party.
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>> Eric
> >>>>
> >>>> Eric Priezkalns
> >>>> Treasurer
> >>>> Pirate Party UK
> >>>> +44 7958 467273
> >>>> treasurer at pirateparty.org.uk
> >>>> http://pirateparty.org.uk
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ____________________________________________________
> >>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> >>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/ 
> >>>> pp.international.general
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>
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> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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