[pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback
Francisco George
francisco.george at gmail.com
Wed Nov 24 14:31:33 CET 2010
Kenneth,
Their argument are NOT Bullshit.
Due to special powers given by the former president Bush to the Attorneys
General and law enforcement agencies after terrorists attacks of 9/11 thos
menaces against PPUS are more than real.
Similar thinks happened in the 50's of last century and was called "the
WitcHunt" (Caza de Brujas)
So I don't extend my self too much I invite you to take a look at this
http://krunchd.com/caza_de_brujas
<http://krunchd.com/caza_de_brujas>People were persecuted, harrassed, some
comdened, lost their jobs and family just because they were on the Senator
Mc Carthy's lists of possible sovietic and comunist sympatizants or agents.
This was at the beginning of the "Cold War" people were obliged to accuse
friends, colleagues etc i they wanted to keep their job and under the menace
that their names could appear on that list.
So what PPUS is talking about already happened in the US, and I can assure
you it was not bullshit!
Best regards
Francisco George
Member of the Spanish Pirate Party National Comittee.
2010/11/23 <pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. German Pirate Party conference with several new key demands
> (Fabio Reinhardt)
> 2. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Gabriel Serrano)
> 3. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Atis)
> 4. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Maxime Rouquet)
> 5. Re: UK action idea: in schools (Richard Stallman)
> 6. Re: UK action idea: in schools (John Fanning)
> 7. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Justus R?meth)
> 8. Re: PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback (Kenneth Peiruza)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:45:16 +0100
> From: Fabio Reinhardt <fr at piratenpartei.de>
> Subject: [pp.int.general] German Pirate Party conference with several
> new key demands
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinm_hMonr1oJicgA8VPoobPGYnKQ19nOM5CqOF0 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Pirates,
>
> the party conference of the German Pirate Party is over. The media
> attention was huge. So we have translated the results in a short
> version in English, so you can read what happened. I concentrated on
> the results. So, that a member had to leave the room, what our board
> president said, and what the expectations and frustrations were (and
> some other stuff), I left out.
>
> Here it goes:
> http://web.piratenpartei.de/Presse-release-101123-German-Pirate-Party-sailing-on-to-new-shores-chemnitz-pirates-new-key-demands
>
> Before you here some over-exaggerated rumors: It is true that members
> have annouced to leave the party. Some due to the demand to treat all
> partnerships equal (of adults only, obv.) and some because of the
> demand of a basic income for everyone, among them a treasury secretary
> of a minor subdivision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel). Some
> media have covered that but so far it does not seem that we lost a big
> number of members because of this. At least the media and other
> parties have speculated that it could be a lot, which does not look
> like it happens.
>
> Just one notion: The right to a basic income, which we demanded, is
> not (yet) the basic income that ha to be paid by the state and that is
> supported eg by the Berlin pirate party. It stops short that, saying
> that everyone has a right to this money but leaves out where the money
> comes from and who pays it. Jens Seipenbusch has already written an
> article, saying we refused the state paid basic income. Most members
> would see this different, but thats esentially it. We are not
> socialists - the main emphasis is the criticism of the cult-like focus
> on employment, which we refuse. But make your own picture after we
> tranlated the demands in details.
>
> Cheers,
> Fabio,
> German Pirate Party Press Office
>
>
> --
> Fabio Reinhardt
> http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Enigma
> Enigma424 at jabber.ccc.de
> Twitter: enigma424
> Crew: Seetiger Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg
> PGP: http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Enigma/PGP
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:04:45 +0100
> From: Gabriel Serrano <gabriel.serrano at partidopirata.es>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Message-ID: <4CEBD80D.7010003 at partidopirata.es>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> I don't understand why UK-PP and USA-Oklahoma-PP keep asking Anonymous
> to stop Ddos. Did any other Party in any country do the same? Why should
> we have any influence on Anonymous?
>
> And whatever you say, an ?Ddos Attack? is another form of civil
> disobedience similar to a street block but with an unfortunate name. A
> new form of disobedience if you want to.
>
> Is that illegal? Yes, but law itself is very subjective. The law has a
> meaning when a democratic State legitimize it. I mean, would you obey a
> law against your rational judgment? For example a law forbidding having
> sex during the week?. I wouldn't accept any law asking me to give 99% of
> my revenue to the State either. That ist because the majority of the
> population would be against such a stupid law. For me a Ddos ist simply
> the signal that democracy is beginning to lose terrain against big
> corporations. People want to protest and they don't know exactly how.
>
> But the point ist, Pirate and Anonymous are different organizations who
> follows the same target. We Pirates like to use the law to fight back
> and Anonymous use everything else.
>
> Please don't mix them.
>
> And somebody pointed out Ghandi was kind, no he wasn't, he was rude but
> not violent.
>
> Saludos
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 18:14:42 +0200
> From: Atis <pirate at atis.id.lv>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTiniERjRRc2X=pBoc0q6QV6eKWAEO5Vb4wQgKVHX at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Hello,
>
> I don't condemn DDoS, but there is a difference between street
> blocking and DDoS, because later can be effectively achieved by single
> person having enough technological resources (i.e. control over
> botnet).
>
> Atis
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Gabriel Serrano
> <gabriel.serrano at partidopirata.es> wrote:
> > I don't understand why UK-PP and USA-Oklahoma-PP keep asking Anonymous to
> > stop Ddos. Did any other Party in any country do the same? Why should we
> > have any influence on Anonymous?
> >
> > And whatever you say, an ?Ddos Attack? is another form of civil
> disobedience
> > similar to a street block but with an unfortunate name. A new form of
> > disobedience if you want to.
> >
> > Is that illegal? Yes, but law itself is very subjective. The law has a
> > meaning when a democratic State legitimize it. I mean, would you obey a
> law
> > against your rational judgment? For example a law forbidding having sex
> > during the week?. I wouldn't accept any law asking me to give 99% of my
> > revenue to the State either. That ist because the majority of the
> population
> > would be against such a stupid law. For me a Ddos ist simply the signal
> that
> > democracy is beginning to lose terrain against big corporations. People
> want
> > to protest and they don't know exactly how.
> >
> > But the point ist, Pirate and Anonymous are different organizations who
> > follows the same target. We Pirates like to use the law to fight back and
> > Anonymous use everything else.
> >
> > Please don't mix them.
> >
> > And somebody pointed out Ghandi was kind, no he wasn't, he was rude but
> not
> > violent.
> >
> > Saludos
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:37:26 +0100
> From: Maxime Rouquet <maxime.rouquet at partipirate.org>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Message-ID: <4CEBEDC6.205 at partipirate.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On 11/23/2010 04:04 PM, Gabriel Serrano wrote:
> > Did any other Party in any country do the same? Why should we have any
> > influence on Anonymous?
> As I already said, french pirate party has called Anonymous not to make
> DDoS attacks against hadopi.fr a few weeks ago.
>
> > And whatever you say, an ?Ddos Attack? is another form of civil
> > disobedience similar to a street block but with an unfortunate name. A
> > new form of disobedience if you want to.
> You speak in general. A DDoS attack or a street block is not good or bad
> in itself (morally speaking at least), it depends on the context.
>
> In the Anonymous case, it is not a good thing because it has no real
> effect, and it is a bad thing because it is used to make politicians and
> public opinion believe Internet users are violent (and childish) people.
>
> > Is that illegal? Yes, but law itself is very subjective. The law has a
> > meaning when a democratic State legitimize it. I mean, would you obey
> > a law against your rational judgment? [...]
> Even if you want to reject the law saying any DDoS is illegal, that does
> not make *every* DDoS a good thing.
>
> > For me a Ddos ist simply the signal that democracy is beginning to
> > lose terrain against big corporations. People want to protest and they
> > don't know exactly how. [...]
> By voting for us ^^.
>
> > And somebody pointed out Ghandi was kind, no he wasn't, he was rude
> > but not violent.
> Ghandi once said : "If one has no affection for a person or a system,
> one should feel free to give the fullest expression to his disaffection
> so long as he does not contemplate, promote, or incite violence."
>
> I think these DDoS attacks are unnecessary (as in useless) violence... A
> non-violent yet rude way to protest would be more like a call to boycott
> imho.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:20:04 -0500
> From: Richard Stallman <rms at gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] UK action idea: in schools
> To: Erik L?nroth <erik.lonroth at gmail.com>
> Cc: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Message-ID: <E1PKwXE-0004BP-HL at fencepost.gnu.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
>
> First of all, even if I would try to lead a campaign for this. I doubt
> anyone would follow. I don't have the authority, mandate or a
> reputation that I think is needed.
>
> Lots of people share our views. If you make good campaign materials,
> people who like the idea will join in distributing them. The main
> task is to make adequate materials, then inform people about them.
>
> I can try convince my fellow Pirates in Sweden, S?dert?lje to consider
> scaling this up after we have completed our "local" version - from
> which we will gain experience and self confidence.
>
> That sounds like a good plan.
>
> However, I see you are in Sweden. Doing this in Sweden is good, but I
> was hoping to find be someone in England, since the specific problem
> I pointed out is in England.
>
>
> --
> Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:28:43 -0500
> From: "John Fanning" <john at netcapital.com>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] UK action idea: in schools
> To: <rms at gnu.org>, 'Erik L?nroth' <erik.lonroth at gmail.com>
> Cc: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Message-ID: <038f01cb8b33$e40c10a0$ac2431e0$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Given that I actually started this....
>
> john
>
> John W Fanning
> Chairman Netcapital
> john at netcapital.com
> facebook.com/gninnaf
> twitter.com/john_fanning
> 781-925-1600 Direct
> 650-814-8800 Cell
>
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Stallman [mailto:rms at gnu.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:20 PM
> To: Erik L?nroth
> Cc: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net; john at netcapital.com
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] UK action idea: in schools
>
> First of all, even if I would try to lead a campaign for this. I doubt
> anyone would follow. I don't have the authority, mandate or a
> reputation that I think is needed.
>
> Lots of people share our views. If you make good campaign materials,
> people who like the idea will join in distributing them. The main
> task is to make adequate materials, then inform people about them.
>
> I can try convince my fellow Pirates in Sweden, S?dert?lje to consider
> scaling this up after we have completed our "local" version - from
> which we will gain experience and self confidence.
>
> That sounds like a good plan.
>
> However, I see you are in Sweden. Doing this in Sweden is good, but I
> was hoping to find be someone in England, since the specific problem
> I pointed out is in England.
>
>
> --
> Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 21:45:06 +0100
> From: Justus R?meth <squig at dfpx.de>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Message-ID: <4CEC27D2.1080305 at dfpx.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On 23.11.10 16:04, Gabriel Serrano wrote:
> > I don't understand why UK-PP and USA-Oklahoma-PP keep asking Anonymous
> > to stop Ddos. Did any other Party in any country do the same? Why
> > should we have any influence on Anonymous?
> As far as I understand it it is because the PPUS wants to make clear
> that they don't have anything to do with illegal activities.
> We should just accept that the laws concerning parties (USPP could lose
> the status of a political party were it to endorse illegal activities)
> as well as the whole attitude the respective societies have towards
> hackers are different in the Anglician world compared to Central and
> Southern Europe. (The CCC as an association by and mainly for hackers is
> respected as a source of knowledge and expertese by the conservative
> German government; the EFF for example, which has nothing to do with
> hackers, could only dream of such a position.)
> In the end it's a PR stunt by the pirate parties involved to address
> domestic problems of legitimacy and legality, and should be handled as
> such. It should be made clear that neither the PPI nor many respective
> PPs don't share that opinion, and that's it.
> Cheers
> -J
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 23:45:53 +0100
> From: Kenneth Peiruza <kenneth at contralaguerra.org>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] PPi ask Anonymous to stop Payback
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Message-ID: <4CEC4421.10204 at contralaguerra.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> This argument is bullshit.
>
> If PP-US is gonna loose the political party status because they don't
> condemn a crime, they will be condemning crimes 24x7.
>
>
> Al 23/11/10 21:45, En/na Justus R?meth ha escrit:
> > On 23.11.10 16:04, Gabriel Serrano wrote:
> >> I don't understand why UK-PP and USA-Oklahoma-PP keep asking
> >> Anonymous to stop Ddos. Did any other Party in any country do the
> >> same? Why should we have any influence on Anonymous?
> > As far as I understand it it is because the PPUS wants to make clear
> > that they don't have anything to do with illegal activities.
> > We should just accept that the laws concerning parties (USPP could
> > lose the status of a political party were it to endorse illegal
> > activities) as well as the whole attitude the respective societies
> > have towards hackers are different in the Anglician world compared to
> > Central and Southern Europe. (The CCC as an association by and mainly
> > for hackers is respected as a source of knowledge and expertese by the
> > conservative German government; the EFF for example, which has nothing
> > to do with hackers, could only dream of such a position.)
> > In the end it's a PR stunt by the pirate parties involved to address
> > domestic problems of legitimacy and legality, and should be handled as
> > such. It should be made clear that neither the PPI nor many respective
> > PPs don't share that opinion, and that's it.
> > Cheers
> > -J
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> pp.international.general mailing list
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>
>
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