[pp.int.general] Love and Solidarity to our Tunisian Brothers and Sisters

Sat Jan 15 09:00:24 CET 2011

Rant rant, bitch bitch. Take it to private emails for fuck's sake,
I've had enough of your American bullshit.

On 15 January 2011 18:56, Jay Emerson <jemers2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree, here I start a serious political thread to express solidarity with
> people who struggled to overthrow an oppressive regime and I'm attacked
> personally for no reason.
>
> This is childish.  I wish to get back to the main topic of Tunisia and what
> the party should do from here in terms of helping out or issuing
> statements.  Somebody expressed this as something they wanted to do and i'd
> like to know what everyone thought about it.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> - Jay
>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 2:46 AM, Gareth Nelson <gareth at garethnelson.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I'd just like to say about this whole thread:
>> The pirate movement IS revolutionary, but it's a revolution that will
>> fail if we allow our PR to be contaminated by immature garbage. Stick
>> to serious politics and we might have a chance of winning.
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:40 AM, Andrew Norton <ktetch at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>> > On 1/15/2011 12:05 AM, Jay Emerson wrote:
>> >> Andrew, you talk from your computer chair and I talk from experience.
>> >> It takes guts to get out there in the streets and all I wanted to do is
>> >> let them know I'm with them in spirit in Tunisia.  I have felt the
>> >> truncheon and the gas, the riot shield and the cold steel of the cuffs,
>> >> the uncertainty of my right to due process in this country and the
>> >> concern of world citizens that fear my government could do the same to
>> >> them at anytime as well.
>> >
>> > You said it was because you decided to break into a building during a
>> > protest, and squared up to the cops. As for your 'uncertainty over due
>> > process', you can't get an Oscar for an email, so drp the act (unless
>> > you have some actual evidence that due process was interfered with,
>> > rather than paranoia).
>> >
>> > You were not forced, by circumstance or otherwise, into that protest, it
>> > was something you DECIDED to do, as in you had this issue, and you
>> > decided you wanted to protest, and then you DECIDED you wanted to take
>> > things further (and I know that because a) you've said so, proudly,
>> > including your first attempt at USPP vice-chair; b) if you hadn't, you'd
>> > have made a lot of front pages) So trying to make out you've been
>> > oppressed is ludicrous, when in actuality you actively and willingly
>> > took part in a law-breaking action, while part of a protest. It's not
>> > like you're Ian Tomlinson, or a situation even remotely similar
>> > (although actions similar to your boats were a major cause of that
>> > situation)
>> >
>> >>
>> >> If that street fighting past marks me as a bad person in your or
>> >> anyone's view, then you can go fuck yourself.
>> >>
>> > When you deliberately go out of your way to escalate things to violence,
>> > yes that DOES make you a bad person. Bad to your fellow protestors there
>> > with you, and around you. Bad to anyone that believes in the same
>> > topics, but is now associated with violence because of your actions.
>> >
>> > When you take unilateral action to raise and advance conflict and go
>> > beyond what everyone else wants, just to prove how 'hard core' you are,
>> > you're not only a bad person, you're a complete liability. I thought
>> > pretty much everyone explained this to you when the vote of no
>> > confidence was brought against you last month, and passed. When you make
>> > statements like this as well, it just underscores why people actively
>> > don't want you in any role of responsibility - you just plain don't know
>> > how to behave appropriately.
>> >
>> >> When every legal channel is exhausted and is so obviously corrupt, well
>> >> some people are moved to action.  That's all I was saying in this yet
>> >> you troll from your computer chair and dare imply you are somehow more
>> >> moral and intelligent than I?
>> >
>> > And yet, In the UK last month, in your example above, and in your
>> > November actions, the legal channels hadn't been exhausted, and were
>> > dismissed as corrupt because, it seems, they were too hard, and not
>> > 'hard core' enough. You don't get the image you seem to crave by writing
>> > well thought out documents setting out facts, and following up with well
>> > considered discussions. To get the air of 'machismo' you need, frankly,
>> > boorish behavour and loutish activities, to prove what a 'hard man' you
>> > are.
>> >
>> > If you really want to have a loud, public action that gets something
>> > done, and shows you really believe in your cause, why not follow
>> > Mohammed Bouazizi's example.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Allow me to say this then, even though I feel I have done a lot more in
>> >> my life than others in struggling for a cause, I never believed to be
>> >> better than anyone else.  I have always believed that within all of us
>> >> is a special characteristic that when brought together as a whole shows
>> >> its complete form and true greatness to overcome the worst of
>> >> situations.
>> >>
>> > You may have done more 'action', put more 'effort' in, but what really
>> > matters is the end effect. If we were both chopping down trees, you use
>> > an axe, and I use a chainsaw. You will certainly put a lot more effort
>> > in, make more noise and look impressive doing it, but I'm going to cut
>> > down ten trees for your one, so has done more?
>> >
>> > To put it another way, it's using the right tool in the right way. Your
>> > way seems to forgo the 'right tool', and stick with a hammer. And as the
>> > saying goes, 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a
>> > nail'.
>> >
>> >> Today, in Tunisia, my theory in that sense was proven right.  For those
>> >> like yourself?  You're no more than a nuisance of skewed opinion while
>> >> the rest of us move forward.
>> >>
>> > I'm wondering if you've really understood what's happened there. I've
>> > spent most of today talking to Tunisians, as well as a good chunk of
>> > yesterday and even then I'm still working through all the nuances of
>> > whats been going on there for the past month. This quote from one of
>> > them, yesterday, gives a slightly different perspective on things "hmm
>> > hearing gunshots at night, knowing that my friends were in jail, knowing
>> > that my people are dying, doesn't help u know". It's the kind of fear
>> > you get from oppression, a maudlin desperation. Not the jolly 'yeah!
>> > lets go break shit!" attitude you revel in promoting.
>> >
>> >> So hate on hater, we shinin' bright!
>> >
>> > You carry on shining bright. Me, I'll go looking back at what happened,
>> > and see what I can learn, so maybe next time, I could possibly do
>> > something that will reduce the death toll; the pain and suffering of the
>> > families, including those who just happened to be in the wrong place at
>> > the wrong time. And while I'm pleased at what's happened there, I'm also
>> > greatly saddened by the cost, one that was too heavy in blood.
>> >>
>> >> :-D
>> >
>> > I'm glad you are pleased, but my thoughts are with those who have lost
>> > loved ones in this, and that takes any thought of a smile from my face,
>> > virtual or otherwise. Clearly, it's not that important to you,
>> > especially as, in many of my discussions, the same point has come up
>> > time and again - that nothing much will actually change. Another quote,
>> > from this evening (done over IRC, so SPaG is not perfect)
>> >
>> > "i don't trust this guy he's ben ali marionette. it's fucked up now
>> > nobody understands a shit even the so called new president, but i know
>> > for sure he's not trustworthy"
>> > and
>> > <them>and that's what most of the tunisian wants.
>> > <K`Tetch> a clean slate, in effect?
>> > <them> yes, and so far we didn't get that. we're afraid ben ali put left
>> > his friends there to cover up his crap
>> > <K`Tetch> there are promises of elections within 6 months, do you
>> > believe that?
>> > <them> he didn't confim now, he said tomorrow morning we'll decide on
>> > that, with other partis, but there are no other trusted parties, legal
>> > parties
>> >
>> > Another said
>> > "but as i say, we're very sceptical concerning this new governement. the
>> > prime minister el ghannouchi, used to be very close to the former
>> > president. actually, he never said ben ali quitted, just "suspended".
>> > Now, People in kasserine, mostly advocates, are still holding marches to
>> > ask for the real appliance of the constitution"
>> >
>> > (I have removed their name for now, until I sort out attribution
>> > tomorrow)
>> >
>> > So, you might claim "It's worked" in Tunisia, and yet the people there
>> > aren't sure if anything has really changed, government wise. Who to
>> > believe? Hmm, Who has a better idea of what's going on there....
>> >
>> > We'll see what happens tomorrow.
>> >
>> > Andrew Norton
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Jay Emerson
>> >> Administrative Officer
>> >> Pirate Party of New York
>> >>
>> >> On Jan 14, 2011 11:46 PM, "Andrew Norton" <ktetch at gmail.com
>> >> <mailto:ktetch at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >> On 1/14/2011 11:31 PM, Jay Emerson wrote:
>> >>>>> Well Andrew, as they say in my native land of New York, "Fuck You".
>> >>>>> It's our state's motto. <3
>> >>>>>
>> >> And about as much as I expected in the way of intelligent discourse.
>> >>
>> >>>>> How's 30 Millibank holding up? :-P
>> >>
>> >> Did you mean 30 Millbank, HQ of the UK Conservative party? I don't
>> >> know,
>> >> but I'll ask some of my old school friends, they'll know (a number were
>> >> Conservative party candidates in the last election there, and are
>> >> currently councilors - it's handy, knowing people)
>> >>
>> >> If you were referring to the protests there last month by the students,
>> >> over the tuition-fee increases, just remember how well they worked out.
>> >> Oh yeah, the fee increases PASSED, and the protests didn't work, and
>> >> many of those that took part and talked to the press couldn't even do
>> >> basic maths, and in the main REDUCED public opposition to the fee
>> >>> increases.
>> >>
>> >> Now, why didn't it work? My money's on them being 'shouty shouty,
>> >> stompy
>> >> stompy, smashy smashy' instead of 'thinky thinky, talky talky'
>> >>
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >
>> >> ____________________________________________________
>> >> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> >> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >
>> >
>> > - --
>> > Andrew Norton
>> > http://ktetch.blogspot.com
>> > Tel: (352)6-KTETCH [352-658-3824]
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>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for
>> everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” -
>> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow
>>
>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
> --
> Jay Emerson
> Administrative Officer
> New York Pirate Party
>
> "My user has information that could...that could make this a free system
> again! No, really! You'd have programs lined up just to use this place, and
> no MCP looking over your shoulder." - Tron
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>

-- 
Regards,
Brendan Molloy
Pirate Party Australia

M: +61 434 069 776