[pp.int.general] Love and Solidarity to our Tunisian Brothers and Sisters

[Jay Emerson]

I agree, here I start a serious political thread to express solidarity with
people who struggled to overthrow an oppressive regime and I'm attacked
personally for no reason.

This is childish.  I wish to get back to the main topic of Tunisia and what
the party should do from here in terms of helping out or issuing
statements.  Somebody expressed this as something they wanted to do and i'd
like to know what everyone thought about it.

Thanks in advance!

- Jay

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 2:46 AM, Gareth Nelson <gareth at garethnelson.com>wrote:

> I'd just like to say about this whole thread:
> The pirate movement IS revolutionary, but it's a revolution that will
> fail if we allow our PR to be contaminated by immature garbage. Stick
> to serious politics and we might have a chance of winning.
>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:40 AM, Andrew Norton <ktetch at gmail.com> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On 1/15/2011 12:05 AM, Jay Emerson wrote:
> >> Andrew, you talk from your computer chair and I talk from experience.
> >> It takes guts to get out there in the streets and all I wanted to do is
> >> let them know I'm with them in spirit in Tunisia.  I have felt the
> >> truncheon and the gas, the riot shield and the cold steel of the cuffs,
> >> the uncertainty of my right to due process in this country and the
> >> concern of world citizens that fear my government could do the same to
> >> them at anytime as well.
> >
> > You said it was because you decided to break into a building during a
> > protest, and squared up to the cops. As for your 'uncertainty over due
> > process', you can't get an Oscar for an email, so drp the act (unless
> > you have some actual evidence that due process was interfered with,
> > rather than paranoia).
> >
> > You were not forced, by circumstance or otherwise, into that protest, it
> > was something you DECIDED to do, as in you had this issue, and you
> > decided you wanted to protest, and then you DECIDED you wanted to take
> > things further (and I know that because a) you've said so, proudly,
> > including your first attempt at USPP vice-chair; b) if you hadn't, you'd
> > have made a lot of front pages) So trying to make out you've been
> > oppressed is ludicrous, when in actuality you actively and willingly
> > took part in a law-breaking action, while part of a protest. It's not
> > like you're Ian Tomlinson, or a situation even remotely similar
> > (although actions similar to your boats were a major cause of that
> > situation)
> >
> >>
> >> If that street fighting past marks me as a bad person in your or
> >> anyone's view, then you can go fuck yourself.
> >>
> > When you deliberately go out of your way to escalate things to violence,
> > yes that DOES make you a bad person. Bad to your fellow protestors there
> > with you, and around you. Bad to anyone that believes in the same
> > topics, but is now associated with violence because of your actions.
> >
> > When you take unilateral action to raise and advance conflict and go
> > beyond what everyone else wants, just to prove how 'hard core' you are,
> > you're not only a bad person, you're a complete liability. I thought
> > pretty much everyone explained this to you when the vote of no
> > confidence was brought against you last month, and passed. When you make
> > statements like this as well, it just underscores why people actively
> > don't want you in any role of responsibility - you just plain don't know
> > how to behave appropriately.
> >
> >> When every legal channel is exhausted and is so obviously corrupt, well
> >> some people are moved to action.  That's all I was saying in this yet
> >> you troll from your computer chair and dare imply you are somehow more
> >> moral and intelligent than I?
> >
> > And yet, In the UK last month, in your example above, and in your
> > November actions, the legal channels hadn't been exhausted, and were
> > dismissed as corrupt because, it seems, they were too hard, and not
> > 'hard core' enough. You don't get the image you seem to crave by writing
> > well thought out documents setting out facts, and following up with well
> > considered discussions. To get the air of 'machismo' you need, frankly,
> > boorish behavour and loutish activities, to prove what a 'hard man' you
> are.
> >
> > If you really want to have a loud, public action that gets something
> > done, and shows you really believe in your cause, why not follow
> > Mohammed Bouazizi's example.
> >
> >>
> >> Allow me to say this then, even though I feel I have done a lot more in
> >> my life than others in struggling for a cause, I never believed to be
> >> better than anyone else.  I have always believed that within all of us
> >> is a special characteristic that when brought together as a whole shows
> >> its complete form and true greatness to overcome the worst of
> situations.
> >>
> > You may have done more 'action', put more 'effort' in, but what really
> > matters is the end effect. If we were both chopping down trees, you use
> > an axe, and I use a chainsaw. You will certainly put a lot more effort
> > in, make more noise and look impressive doing it, but I'm going to cut
> > down ten trees for your one, so has done more?
> >
> > To put it another way, it's using the right tool in the right way. Your
> > way seems to forgo the 'right tool', and stick with a hammer. And as the
> > saying goes, 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a
> nail'.
> >
> >> Today, in Tunisia, my theory in that sense was proven right.  For those
> >> like yourself?  You're no more than a nuisance of skewed opinion while
> >> the rest of us move forward.
> >>
> > I'm wondering if you've really understood what's happened there. I've
> > spent most of today talking to Tunisians, as well as a good chunk of
> > yesterday and even then I'm still working through all the nuances of
> > whats been going on there for the past month. This quote from one of
> > them, yesterday, gives a slightly different perspective on things "hmm
> > hearing gunshots at night, knowing that my friends were in jail, knowing
> > that my people are dying, doesn't help u know". It's the kind of fear
> > you get from oppression, a maudlin desperation. Not the jolly 'yeah!
> > lets go break shit!" attitude you revel in promoting.
> >
> >> So hate on hater, we shinin' bright!
> >
> > You carry on shining bright. Me, I'll go looking back at what happened,
> > and see what I can learn, so maybe next time, I could possibly do
> > something that will reduce the death toll; the pain and suffering of the
> > families, including those who just happened to be in the wrong place at
> > the wrong time. And while I'm pleased at what's happened there, I'm also
> > greatly saddened by the cost, one that was too heavy in blood.
> >>
> >> :-D
> >
> > I'm glad you are pleased, but my thoughts are with those who have lost
> > loved ones in this, and that takes any thought of a smile from my face,
> > virtual or otherwise. Clearly, it's not that important to you,
> > especially as, in many of my discussions, the same point has come up
> > time and again - that nothing much will actually change. Another quote,
> > from this evening (done over IRC, so SPaG is not perfect)
> >
> > "i don't trust this guy he's ben ali marionette. it's fucked up now
> > nobody understands a shit even the so called new president, but i know
> > for sure he's not trustworthy"
> > and
> > <them>and that's what most of the tunisian wants.
> > <K`Tetch> a clean slate, in effect?
> > <them> yes, and so far we didn't get that. we're afraid ben ali put left
> > his friends there to cover up his crap
> > <K`Tetch> there are promises of elections within 6 months, do you
> > believe that?
> > <them> he didn't confim now, he said tomorrow morning we'll decide on
> > that, with other partis, but there are no other trusted parties, legal
> > parties
> >
> > Another said
> > "but as i say, we're very sceptical concerning this new governement. the
> > prime minister el ghannouchi, used to be very close to the former
> > president. actually, he never said ben ali quitted, just "suspended".
> > Now, People in kasserine, mostly advocates, are still holding marches to
> > ask for the real appliance of the constitution"
> >
> > (I have removed their name for now, until I sort out attribution
> tomorrow)
> >
> > So, you might claim "It's worked" in Tunisia, and yet the people there
> > aren't sure if anything has really changed, government wise. Who to
> > believe? Hmm, Who has a better idea of what's going on there....
> >
> > We'll see what happens tomorrow.
> >
> > Andrew Norton
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Jay Emerson
> >> Administrative Officer
> >> Pirate Party of New York
> >>
> >> On Jan 14, 2011 11:46 PM, "Andrew Norton" <ktetch at gmail.com
> >> <mailto:ktetch at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> On 1/14/2011 11:31 PM, Jay Emerson wrote:
> >>>>> Well Andrew, as they say in my native land of New York, "Fuck You".
> >>>>> It's our state's motto. <3
> >>>>>
> >> And about as much as I expected in the way of intelligent discourse.
> >>
> >>>>> How's 30 Millibank holding up? :-P
> >>
> >> Did you mean 30 Millbank, HQ of the UK Conservative party? I don't know,
> >> but I'll ask some of my old school friends, they'll know (a number were
> >> Conservative party candidates in the last election there, and are
> >> currently councilors - it's handy, knowing people)
> >>
> >> If you were referring to the protests there last month by the students,
> >> over the tuition-fee increases, just remember how well they worked out.
> >> Oh yeah, the fee increases PASSED, and the protests didn't work, and
> >> many of those that took part and talked to the press couldn't even do
> >> basic maths, and in the main REDUCED public opposition to the fee
> >>> increases.
> >>
> >> Now, why didn't it work? My money's on them being 'shouty shouty, stompy
> >> stompy, smashy smashy' instead of 'thinky thinky, talky talky'
> >>
> > ____________________________________________________
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> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
> >> ____________________________________________________
> >> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> >> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
> >
> > - --
> > Andrew Norton
> > http://ktetch.blogspot.com
> > Tel: (352)6-KTETCH [352-658-3824]
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> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
>
>
>
> --
> “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for
> everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” -
> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>



-- 
Jay Emerson
Administrative Officer
New York Pirate Party

"My user has information that could...that could make this a free system
again! No, really! You'd have programs lined up just to use this place, and
no MCP looking over your shoulder." - Tron
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