[pp.int.general] Love and Solidarity to our Tunisian Brothers and Sisters

Sat Jan 15 08:46:16 CET 2011

I'd just like to say about this whole thread:
The pirate movement IS revolutionary, but it's a revolution that will
fail if we allow our PR to be contaminated by immature garbage. Stick
to serious politics and we might have a chance of winning.

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:40 AM, Andrew Norton <ktetch at gmail.com> wrote:
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> On 1/15/2011 12:05 AM, Jay Emerson wrote:
>> Andrew, you talk from your computer chair and I talk from experience.
>> It takes guts to get out there in the streets and all I wanted to do is
>> let them know I'm with them in spirit in Tunisia.  I have felt the
>> truncheon and the gas, the riot shield and the cold steel of the cuffs,
>> the uncertainty of my right to due process in this country and the
>> concern of world citizens that fear my government could do the same to
>> them at anytime as well.
>
> You said it was because you decided to break into a building during a
> protest, and squared up to the cops. As for your 'uncertainty over due
> process', you can't get an Oscar for an email, so drp the act (unless
> you have some actual evidence that due process was interfered with,
> rather than paranoia).
>
> You were not forced, by circumstance or otherwise, into that protest, it
> was something you DECIDED to do, as in you had this issue, and you
> decided you wanted to protest, and then you DECIDED you wanted to take
> things further (and I know that because a) you've said so, proudly,
> including your first attempt at USPP vice-chair; b) if you hadn't, you'd
> have made a lot of front pages) So trying to make out you've been
> oppressed is ludicrous, when in actuality you actively and willingly
> took part in a law-breaking action, while part of a protest. It's not
> like you're Ian Tomlinson, or a situation even remotely similar
> (although actions similar to your boats were a major cause of that
> situation)
>
>>
>> If that street fighting past marks me as a bad person in your or
>> anyone's view, then you can go fuck yourself.
>>
> When you deliberately go out of your way to escalate things to violence,
> yes that DOES make you a bad person. Bad to your fellow protestors there
> with you, and around you. Bad to anyone that believes in the same
> topics, but is now associated with violence because of your actions.
>
> When you take unilateral action to raise and advance conflict and go
> beyond what everyone else wants, just to prove how 'hard core' you are,
> you're not only a bad person, you're a complete liability. I thought
> pretty much everyone explained this to you when the vote of no
> confidence was brought against you last month, and passed. When you make
> statements like this as well, it just underscores why people actively
> don't want you in any role of responsibility - you just plain don't know
> how to behave appropriately.
>
>> When every legal channel is exhausted and is so obviously corrupt, well
>> some people are moved to action.  That's all I was saying in this yet
>> you troll from your computer chair and dare imply you are somehow more
>> moral and intelligent than I?
>
> And yet, In the UK last month, in your example above, and in your
> November actions, the legal channels hadn't been exhausted, and were
> dismissed as corrupt because, it seems, they were too hard, and not
> 'hard core' enough. You don't get the image you seem to crave by writing
> well thought out documents setting out facts, and following up with well
> considered discussions. To get the air of 'machismo' you need, frankly,
> boorish behavour and loutish activities, to prove what a 'hard man' you are.
>
> If you really want to have a loud, public action that gets something
> done, and shows you really believe in your cause, why not follow
> Mohammed Bouazizi's example.
>
>>
>> Allow me to say this then, even though I feel I have done a lot more in
>> my life than others in struggling for a cause, I never believed to be
>> better than anyone else.  I have always believed that within all of us
>> is a special characteristic that when brought together as a whole shows
>> its complete form and true greatness to overcome the worst of situations.
>>
> You may have done more 'action', put more 'effort' in, but what really
> matters is the end effect. If we were both chopping down trees, you use
> an axe, and I use a chainsaw. You will certainly put a lot more effort
> in, make more noise and look impressive doing it, but I'm going to cut
> down ten trees for your one, so has done more?
>
> To put it another way, it's using the right tool in the right way. Your
> way seems to forgo the 'right tool', and stick with a hammer. And as the
> saying goes, 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail'.
>
>> Today, in Tunisia, my theory in that sense was proven right.  For those
>> like yourself?  You're no more than a nuisance of skewed opinion while
>> the rest of us move forward.
>>
> I'm wondering if you've really understood what's happened there. I've
> spent most of today talking to Tunisians, as well as a good chunk of
> yesterday and even then I'm still working through all the nuances of
> whats been going on there for the past month. This quote from one of
> them, yesterday, gives a slightly different perspective on things "hmm
> hearing gunshots at night, knowing that my friends were in jail, knowing
> that my people are dying, doesn't help u know". It's the kind of fear
> you get from oppression, a maudlin desperation. Not the jolly 'yeah!
> lets go break shit!" attitude you revel in promoting.
>
>> So hate on hater, we shinin' bright!
>
> You carry on shining bright. Me, I'll go looking back at what happened,
> and see what I can learn, so maybe next time, I could possibly do
> something that will reduce the death toll; the pain and suffering of the
> families, including those who just happened to be in the wrong place at
> the wrong time. And while I'm pleased at what's happened there, I'm also
> greatly saddened by the cost, one that was too heavy in blood.
>>
>> :-D
>
> I'm glad you are pleased, but my thoughts are with those who have lost
> loved ones in this, and that takes any thought of a smile from my face,
> virtual or otherwise. Clearly, it's not that important to you,
> especially as, in many of my discussions, the same point has come up
> time and again - that nothing much will actually change. Another quote,
> from this evening (done over IRC, so SPaG is not perfect)
>
> "i don't trust this guy he's ben ali marionette. it's fucked up now
> nobody understands a shit even the so called new president, but i know
> for sure he's not trustworthy"
> and
> <them>and that's what most of the tunisian wants.
> <K`Tetch> a clean slate, in effect?
> <them> yes, and so far we didn't get that. we're afraid ben ali put left
> his friends there to cover up his crap
> <K`Tetch> there are promises of elections within 6 months, do you
> believe that?
> <them> he didn't confim now, he said tomorrow morning we'll decide on
> that, with other partis, but there are no other trusted parties, legal
> parties
>
> Another said
> "but as i say, we're very sceptical concerning this new governement. the
> prime minister el ghannouchi, used to be very close to the former
> president. actually, he never said ben ali quitted, just "suspended".
> Now, People in kasserine, mostly advocates, are still holding marches to
> ask for the real appliance of the constitution"
>
> (I have removed their name for now, until I sort out attribution tomorrow)
>
> So, you might claim "It's worked" in Tunisia, and yet the people there
> aren't sure if anything has really changed, government wise. Who to
> believe? Hmm, Who has a better idea of what's going on there....
>
> We'll see what happens tomorrow.
>
> Andrew Norton
>
>
>>
>> Jay Emerson
>> Administrative Officer
>> Pirate Party of New York
>>
>> On Jan 14, 2011 11:46 PM, "Andrew Norton" <ktetch at gmail.com
>> <mailto:ktetch at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> On 1/14/2011 11:31 PM, Jay Emerson wrote:
>>>>> Well Andrew, as they say in my native land of New York, "Fuck You".
>>>>> It's our state's motto. <3
>>>>>
>> And about as much as I expected in the way of intelligent discourse.
>>
>>>>> How's 30 Millibank holding up? :-P
>>
>> Did you mean 30 Millbank, HQ of the UK Conservative party? I don't know,
>> but I'll ask some of my old school friends, they'll know (a number were
>> Conservative party candidates in the last election there, and are
>> currently councilors - it's handy, knowing people)
>>
>> If you were referring to the protests there last month by the students,
>> over the tuition-fee increases, just remember how well they worked out.
>> Oh yeah, the fee increases PASSED, and the protests didn't work, and
>> many of those that took part and talked to the press couldn't even do
>> basic maths, and in the main REDUCED public opposition to the fee
>>> increases.
>>
>> Now, why didn't it work? My money's on them being 'shouty shouty, stompy
>> stompy, smashy smashy' instead of 'thinky thinky, talky talky'
>>
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>> ____________________________________________________
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>
> - --
> Andrew Norton
> http://ktetch.blogspot.com
> Tel: (352)6-KTETCH [352-658-3824]
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> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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