[pp.int.general] To Brendan Molloy - Childish Spaniards

Thu Apr 5 23:42:37 CEST 2012

> Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2012 05:45:19 +1000
> From: brendan.molloy at pirateparty.org.au
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] To Brendan Molloy - Childish Spaniards
> 
> Hi Gabriel,
> 
> Let me start by saying that if you don't believe your party can effect
> change on your political system, then perhaps you're in the wrong
> movement and need to step aside for a party that can. Not a good start
> to a fairly inflammatory email, discounting your ability to fix a
> problem citing "cultural differences".

Brendan,

I believe you have not understood. Gabriel was not talking about the abilities of the party, and your comment about stepping aside may be understood as wishful thinking within a certain situation that is building up, just as your referral to the CoA is.

What Gabriel was saying about the 500 years of Spanish politics is merely that you can not stop people from throwing shit at the fan. We have no instruments other than a terribly slow justice system to handle behaviours like that of Choms.

We have tried to be brief in our interventions, well aware of the fact that a flame war is not in our and anybodies interest.

But it is not easy to do the right thing in the face of mass dynamics, and you are contributing to the confusion too, be it with or without specific interests. 

> Seeing as you're unaware, I am raising the issue with the CoA regardless
> of my capacity within PPI, so this has nothing to do with my
> candidature, but thanks for pulling the old school bullshit of trying to
> conflate very separate issues into one in a pretty poor attempt to smear
> my name and make me go away.

I guess we will await the notification of the issue then, before we adventure any opinion about its intention and scope.

> I tire of seeing the squabbling occurring on the PPI list. It shows a
> party in turmoil. I am not the only person to ask that these discussions
> stay civil or preferably not on these lists at all, but evidently, that
> hasn't worked, so something needs to be done.

More squabbling has occurred on this list on several occasions. We understand that sometimes, some people make it inevitable. You can't have freedom without responsibility, and we are not all guilty just because a few have no control of their emotions and do not stick to what is allowable and what not in certain places like this list.

Not all third party reactions have had the best interest of this list in mind either, and we do not make things worse ranting about it if we can avoid it. Which is not the case when someone like you suggests this situation, of which we are as victims as the rest of the list, could and should result in consequences imposed to our party.

> If it were truly a cultural issue as you say, we'd see a bunch of
> Catalan squabbling and Galician squabbling as well, which we do not, so
> let's not pull the culture card and pretend that we're all so very
> different. It defeats the purpose of this movement.

You've had Catalan squabbling, and even proposals for statutes change. They certainly defeat the purpose of this movement, and we are deeply embarassed, but we can not change that without giving in to their wishes, can we? 

> Perhaps if you stopped to speak to me privately instead of attempting to
> call me out publicly on a mailing list, you'd know I'm actually a very
> caring guy who only cares about the health of this movement and have no
> interest in taking sides on this issue. I am purely looking for a
> solution to a problem that seems to be plaguing this movement, not
> something as petty as a board candidature.

Mind you, this problem has no solution within the movement at the moment. Not if you do not want to establish minimum requirements for affiliation and are ready to kick out people that do not abide by them. If you want quick growth at all costs, then trouble is what you get.

And trouble is what we have.

> If you, or anyone for that matter, ever wishes to discuss any issues
> with me, my email address is also my Jabber/GTalk address.

We can discuss these troubles and similar ones at the GA and/or PPEU panel. We need clear protocols on how to deal with these kind of issues in the near future anyway if we do not want to get swamped by multilateral flame wars.

In the meantime, lets try not to add fuel to the flames by loosing temper and say things that can not be left without an answer.

If your referral to the CoA is in earnest, we'd like a copy as soon as it is possible.

Best regards.

Antonio.
PPES.

> Gabriel Serrano wrote:
> > Dear fellow Pirate Molloy,
> > 
> > First of all I want to apologize like to all of you for all the noise,
> > bad mood and unproductive arguing because of an internal dispute at the
> > PPES. 
> > 
> > I really apreciate your interest wit your in our internal problems but
> > I'd like you to remark spanish politics have been like that the last 500
> > hundred years and it is probably not going to change in the following
> > months.
> > 
> > What can I say it lies on our culture to discuss like that.
> > 
> > We all know the anglosaxon style is different, more calm and ironic, but
> > so it is the caracter of the people in those countries as well. That's
> > why I think you should also better show more intercultural skills and
> > consider other kind of politics than yours before calling us childish so
> > easily. 
> > 
> > So please don't make the mistake of using our noisy political disussions
> > for gaining points for your candidature. You already got my rejection
> > with it.
> > 
> > Every Pirate Party on the world has his owns internal problems. Let him
> > who is without sin cast the first stone. I am sure you are not.
> > 
> > Gabriel Serrano
> > Coordinador Internacional
> > Partido Pirata Español
> > 
> > Molloys comment:
> > 
> > Para Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> > 
> > I'm going to insist on some level of calm here. This is not the place
> > for either party to mud-sling in the manner that has been occurring over
> > the past couple of months.
> >  
> > As I have made very clear, I will be making a motion that claims against
> > PPES are investigated and hopefully we can find out exactly what is
> > going on here and the mud-slinging can end.
> >  
> > Regardless, keep it civil at all times. We're a political movement, not
> > a school yard. Hearsay has no place in a party of information, nor does
> > PPI have a place for those who think it appropriate to make a sweeping
> > statement against one of their own members on an international mailing
> > list. It is grossly unprofessional.
> >  
> > All I see right now is it seems the regional dispute organ of PPES has
> > failed, causing the mess to spill over into the PPI lists. I would like
> > to see proper policies implemented within PPI for resolving regional
> > disputes between party members and their parties where their regional
> > CoA equivalent has failed to resolve the dispute, and I will be adding
> > that to my platform for running for the board this coming GA.
> >  
> > Until the GA, keep it civil guys. This will be sorted out one way or
> > another.
> > 
> > 
> > Brendan Molloy
> > 
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Brendan Molloy
> Secretary
> Pirate Party Australia
> 
> M: +61 449 617 246
> W: http://www.pirateparty.org.au
> E: brendan.molloy at pirateparty.org.au
> T: @piecritic
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20120405/b853c7e9/attachment-0001.html>