[pp.int.general] [RULING] 2012-5 (Validity of 2012 GA Conference)

[Antonio Garcia]

> Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:33:27 +0200
> From: jakobsheep at gmail.com
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] [RULING] 2012-5 (Validity of 2012 GA
> Conference)
> 
> Precise, it is not the procedure ITSELF that is at risk, but the
> participants level of awareness.

more precisely, because of the participants level of instruction, 
awareness and lack of understanding of the necessity of shared 
rules... the integrity of the procedure itself is at risk, and it 
gets ignored way too many times to constitute a framework one can 
trust to hold to the supposedly applicable logic in such a way that 
you can stick to the task of developing argumentation on top of it. 
instead, you always have to argument against the complete void, from 
zero, without regard to existing rules that may not be upheld. This 
way any argumenting becomes a daunting task... and everybody just 
shuts up and endures whatever idiocy just not to embark on that 
mission.


> To put this is simple words, the International Pirate Party is a beta
> release still !!!

absolutely everything in the pirate parties is still beta (if not 
alpha) release still. but still... beta is in our case far better 
than nothing. the whole occupy/indignado/15m/dry movement and 
comparable other awareness movements that have arisen this last 
year, and many that existed before, are struggling to get on their 
feet and become influential citizens movements with social 
relevance. some of their members have carried maximalist agendas 
pushing for the overthrow of constitutional frameworks and the 
establishment of new constituent assemblies composed of plain 
citizens, but they have miscalculated the overall composition of the 
actual social mass... the ones being squeezed right now (the rest 
already was and already endured passively) is the middle class, and 
they will simply not second an uprising based on anarchist logic, 
they will not embrace the chaos that they have been made to think 
would result from it... because they might lose much more than they 
want to keep in it. so, no matter how badly they want it... there 
will be no anarchist uprising. the only alternative that remains is 
to follow a reformist agenda.

these movements are mostly on the reformist track, asking their 
legislatures to enact laws that re-establish justice to the plain 
clothes people, but at the same time, because they do not seem able 
to find out why politicians and union cadres keep selling them out, 
are very distrusting of these political and social structuring 
entities and demand to get them out of their way and be allowed to 
govern themselves through direct democracy.

but of course they are not aware of a few facts:

1) the efficiency of a direct democracy is directly linked to the 
level of consciousness and commitment of the big majority of its 
constituent members, and we are not scoring high on that these last 
centuries, particularly since the emergence of the industrial 
revolution. anarchy as a system requires individual people to be 
wise enough to adopt voluntarily what is best for the whole of 
society, that is, to accept something that may not be optimal for 
the concerned individual without others being forced to apply 
coercion. freedom does not exist as long as logic and ethic can not 
perform unrestricted, because then any principled individual should 
feel compelled to leave behind whatever pleasant free choice he may 
be occupied with and start a quest to restore the logic and ethic 
fabric of society, thus embarking on a mission imposed on him by 
circumstances... not based on free will thus.

2) the real reasons because of which some people again and again 
become authoritarians and impinge on the equal rights of others to 
build a privileged platform for themselves. as long as one has not 
solved this problem... his ideal society will have to provide 
mechanisms to deal with this kind of people... becoming less ideal 
in the process.

3) the fact that, when it has been assessed that overthrowing the 
constitutional frameworks is beyond reach under the present and 
foreseeable future circumstances... only political action combined 
with efforts to raise public awareness can yield results. at that 
moment, the existing movements should recognise they did future 
society a disservice throwing all the political parties and 
ideologies out of the window together with the rotting water the mix 
had become because they could not envision how to clean up the mess.one

they may be lucky still... if we as pirates manage to convince them 
of the fact that we embarked on the proper analysis of these rotten 
waters almost seven years ago now, and that we have found a way that 
is at least worth a try... and may be highly successful. society has 
wasted so many legislatures already, that it should not come over as 
an exaggerated bid to risk two or three more giving it a try... we 
can do it worldwide almost at once.


> What are we as pirates compared to the majority? 1% of the voters?
> How can we then put that much emphasis on what we are (trying) to
> create?

intelligent analysis and honest upfront argumentation along 
understandable lines with political viability... should go a long way.

it does not matter how many (or not that many) we are now... nothing 
can kill an idea once its time has come... once known it spreads 
quicker than wildfire. the only possible trouble is that it does not 
succeed in spreading, that is why authoritarians want to control the 
means of communication... all of them. But no technical means ever 
will be able to harness the freedom of a thinking mind, not even the 
last one not to have been lobotomised... one spartacus is enough to 
start all over again, and no control society can dream of becoming 
that absolutely efficient. any smart outsmarts tyranny. 

> At the best we, the pirates, come to a working political model. To
> defend this political structure in the future with the words "we,
> the pirate party HAVE (decided) what THE CORRECT system IS." What if
> the others decide to change 'our' system? Here the problem of DOGMA
> rises, that what killed EVERY free thinking movement so far (read
> the history). This is the paradox of the individual versus the group
> !!!!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought
> Collective anarchism does exists in the ideal but NOT in the
> reality. So ANY given system is LIMITED to itself. So the real
> problem is to determine who of us is aware ENOUGH and SKILLED in
> communicating for these difficult syntheses.

i claim to have dedicated most of my life to sharpening awareness 
and dissecting the flaws of the system that oppresses us... the only 
remaining problem is that while i can think almost everything with 
my own brain... i can not do everything with only my two hands. and 
besides, it does not work when you build a complete solution, 
package it in a.deb or .rpm and set it loose in the wild... it will 
be overall too complex for ordinary people to start sniffing at it 
and get convinced. you need the smarter people to give it a try and 
become ambassadors for what they will have been able to accept as a 
correct system because of their ability to scrutinize the source 
code. free software should be the exactly appropriate model to 
bootstrap the launch of a free democracy, a system with all the 
logic and the ethic still firmly attached to it, like it happens to 
be for free software. Free software and a free society should go 
hand in hand.


> So the order in practicality should be BEFORE the actual voting there
> HAS to be a CONSENSUS. This is NOT the case so far, because the
> principle of dictatorship of the majority has been applied.  Correct
> me if I'm wrong.

you are not wrong... debate and consensus have been sidetracked and 
are at risk of becoming sidetracked way more... orchestrated lack of 
time becoming the welcomed technology to be able to skip it all and 
arrive at the point accessible without effort to the big masses... 
the direct vote, if only tossing a coin or throwing dice.

the problem with tossing coins or throwing dice being that nothing 
warrants consistency between two or more different issues being 
decided at the same or different times. it makes any kind of 
coherence impossible, and instead of the self-organizing anarchy of 
the all wise, you get the chaos of everybody always dedicating 
24h/day to achieve mere survival in the surrounding chaos. all back 
to square one of civilization, enlightenment and any other 
achievement of the human mind squandered by sheer stupidity, 
survival of the fittest in the blackest of black holes... an 
idiocracy.

> Does this make sense?
> (By the way although I criticize ourself, this process we're going
> through is essential. See it as  learning to swim.)

indeed. man, am i trying to swim upstream in all possible places at the same time ;) .

it's such a challenge that i am actually having fun.


antonio garcía
pp-es
(and world citizen)


 
> On 18 August 2012 06:47, Zbigniew Łukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>   On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Anouk Neeteson 
>   <jakobsheep at gmail.com> wrote:
>   > Hi Andrew, I (obviously) was also not there. I am naïve, so I
>   (often without knowing) poke in mud and under the surface(s). I am
>   again pleasently surprised with 1 an update and 2 you also show
>   you can seperate one from the
>   > other. Emotion from the intellect, the individual from the group.
>   > I'm not sure how to say it but logic and honesty WILL make it succeed. The
>     > collective subconsience is finally moving into the collective conscience.
>     > The old ways of thinking are convulging even through our fellow pirates. I
>     > don't want to preach (another) new age retorics, but listening and looking
>     > around one can see things actually changing.
>     > The new revolution is going to be a 'silent' one. No destruction but
>     > carefully keep that what is good functioning, improe what needs to be and
>     > REPLACE what is wrong.
>     >
>     > Al the details are bollocks in the end if we can't change what needs to be
>     > changed before ANY PERMANENT change can take place. And that is replacing
>     > the lie of our so called Free West into true DIRECT democratie. And that can
>     > only happen with building trust and learning to communicate even better. In
>     > the end it is about the critical mass that true change will occur, and that
>     > countdown is about how many truly honest and empathic people coorperate in
>     > that spirit
>     >
>     > The technology is available, we only lack excercise/experience and unity.
>     >
>     > I know how to get united, but not all pirates understand freedom. There is
>     > NO TOTAL FREEDOM. Therefor must we define it. But that is a bridge too far
>     > because the 'uniting factor' of the pirate movement today is this undefined,
>     > by everybody differently perceived abstract 'freedom'
>     >
>     > Oh dear, does that mean......?
>     > Yes we need a set of moral guides/codes for the individuals how to
>     > coorperate and function. (like the netiquette)
> 
>     Well in this particular case I think the rules are already quite well
>     established - things like not judging your own case, including in the
>     protocol everything that was said - not only what was said by some
>     priviledged part of the participants (to be fair I believe that remote
>     participation was asking for trouble), not changing rules at the last
>     moment and generally playing with the rules.  There are pretty basic
>     and very concrete things - I don't think you need to develop any
>     additional theory here.
> 
> 
>     Cheers,
>     Zbigniew
> 
> 
>     --
>     Zbigniew Lukasiak
>     http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
>     http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
>     ____________________________________________________
>     Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>     pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>     http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:33:27 +0200
From: jakobsheep at gmail.com
To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] [RULING] 2012-5 (Validity of 2012 GA	Conference)


Precise, it is not the procedure ITSELF that is at risk, but the participants level of awareness.
To put this is simple words, the Interntional Pirate Party is a beta release still !!!
What are we as pirates compared to the majority? 1% of the voters?How can we then put that much emphasis on what we are (trying) to create?
At the best we, the pirates, come to a working political model. To defend this political structure in the future with the words "we, the pirate party HAVE (decided) what THE CORRECT system IS." What if the others decide to change 'our' system? Here the problem of DOGMA rises, that what killed EVERY free thinking movement so far (read the history). This is the paradox of the individual versus the group !!!!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought
Collective anarchism does exists in the ideal but NOT in the reality. So ANY given system is LIMITED to itself. So the real problem is to determine who of us is aware ENOUGH and SKILLED in communicating for these difficult syntheses.
So the order in practicality should be BEFORE the actual voting ther HAS to be a CONSENSUS. This is NOT the case so far, because the principle of dictatorship of the majority has been applied.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Does this make sense?
(By the way although I criticize ourself, this process we're going through is essential. See it as  learning to swim.)


On 18 August 2012 06:47, Zbigniew Łukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Anouk Neeteson <jakobsheep at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Andrew, I (obviously) was also not there. I am naïve, so I (often without

> knowing) poke in mud and under the surface(s). I am again pleasently

> surprised with 1 an update and 2 you also show you can seperate one from the

> other. Emotion from the intellect, the individual from the group.

> I'm not sure how to say it but logic and honesty WILL make it succeed. The

> collective subconsience is finally moving into the collective conscience.

> The old ways of thinking are convulging even through our fellow pirates. I

> don't want to preach (another) new age retorics, but listening and looking

> around one can see things actually changing.

> The new revolution is going to be a 'silent' one. No destruction but

> carefully keep that what is good functioning, improe what needs to be and

> REPLACE what is wrong.

>

> Al the details are bollocks in the end if we can't change what needs to be

> changed before ANY PERMANENT change can take place. And that is replacing

> the lie of our so called Free West into true DIRECT democratie. And that can

> only happen with building trust and learning to communicate even better. In

> the end it is about the critical mass that true change will occur, and that

> countdown is about how many truly honest and empathic people coorperate in

> that spirit

>

> The technology is available, we only lack excercise/experience and unity.

>

> I know how to get united, but not all pirates understand freedom. There is

> NO TOTAL FREEDOM. Therefor must we define it. But that is a bridge too far

> because the 'uniting factor' of the pirate movement today is this undefined,

> by everybody differently perceived abstract 'freedom'

>

> Oh dear, does that mean......?

> Yes we need a set of moral guides/codes for the individuals how to

> coorperate and function. (like the netiquette)



Well in this particular case I think the rules are already quite well

established - things like not judging your own case, including in the

protocol everything that was said - not only what was said by some

priviledged part of the participants (to be fair I believe that remote

participation was asking for trouble), not changing rules at the last

moment and generally playing with the rules.  There are pretty basic

and very concrete things - I don't think you need to develop any

additional theory here.





Cheers,

Zbigniew





--

Zbigniew Lukasiak

http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/

http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/

____________________________________________________

Pirate Parties International - General Talk

pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net

http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general




____________________________________________________
Pirate Parties International - General Talk
pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general 		 	   		  
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