[pp.int.general] Other (no sot good) reaction to MU joint complaint campaign

Sun Jan 29 16:22:18 CET 2012

It took us over half a year to explain to the media/public that blocking
DNS addresses is the wrong way to fight child pornography because it is
ineffectual and easy to abuse, and we still haven't won the fight against
data retention (even though we had support from the other 3 'small' German
parties, the constitutional court (highest court in Germany) and plenty of
academic articles supporting our cause, have fought for 5+ year, have the
government consulting the CCC on a regular basis about all kinds of topics,
and won 9% in the Berlin elections and are polling at 6-10% federally).
So in short: Yeah, it is unlikely that we will convince that part of the
public of fighting for the rights of MU customers is a good thing before
the upcoming elections.

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Choms <choms at botmania.net> wrote:

>  Is really that hard to explain to your media "We condemn MU commercial
> model, but we defend user's rights and data privacy"? xD those are two
> topics non incompatible, it's not like one or the another, you can choose
> both xD
>
>
> 2012/1/29 Justus Römeth <squig at dfpx.de>
>
>> Again, I personally am for everything you do, and so is a large part of
>> PPDE, I am sure. I am trying to explain why some parts are against it, and
>> why it is not as big of a deal over here. Also, I don't think MU and MV had
>> that many German customers, most users here use Rapidshare (or Dropbox)
>> afaik, companies that are more careful not to violate US law.
>>
>> I agree that 9 days is very very slow to come to a decision.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Kenneth Peiruza <kenneth at pirata.cat>wrote:
>>
>>>  Then you have a huge trouble in decision-making... 9 days so far in a
>>> hot topic related to your ideology...
>>>
>>> BTW, our lawyers have prepared a strategy through 2 complaints (in
>>> Spain, that can be replicated in all EU countries + most Latin American
>>> countries):
>>>
>>> - One, leaded by us, about personal data. This is probably going to be
>>> won and will have little or no effect with US authorities, but will be a
>>> moral victory. We are gonna push this one from Pirates de Catalunya.
>>> - Another one, facilitated by us but not made by us, where  MU customers
>>> will be able to get an economic compensation. I can't tell you more in an
>>> open list, but it's quite easy that MU customers will have an economic
>>> compensation for unjustified damage. Hot news, we're going to use copyright
>>> enforcement laws against them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Our lawyers are not amateur guys but the TOP-10 (all them) of Spain's
>>> Internet Rights and anti-RIAA lawyers. We have specialists in Spanish and
>>> European privacy laws + lawyers working in Spanish Congress specialized in
>>> European laws + top consumer organization's lawyers + at least 10 lawyers
>>> from #15M/#SpanishRevolution from Barcelona, preparing "legal defense kits"
>>> for the affected users.
>>>
>>> I'd love to see what your voters think about you, abandoning 4M German
>>> citizen's privacy and consumer's rights.
>>>
>>> Are you against case #1? and about customer rights in case #2?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Kenneth
>>>
>>> Al 29/01/12 15:49, En/na Justus Römeth ha escrit:
>>>
>>> Moin Kenneth
>>>
>>>  We are (or rather our leadership is) slow, so actually there is nothing
>>> decided yet.
>>>
>>>  IMO all you write is true, but smaller PPs can win much more than PPDE
>>> in this case, we already have our name out there. Anyways, it's not like we
>>> actually oppose you, is it? Afaik nobody official from PPDE has put forward
>>> an opinion to the matter, everything else were just individual opinions.
>>>
>>>  Having said that, the fact that the US is more of a police state than
>>> we would like, and that it is unlikely anybody is gonna get his data back
>>> is a shame, but probably nothing a court ruling in Europe will change. And
>>> I doubt we could win a case in the US (if we were to try that we should get
>>> the EFF on board, however).
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>>  -J
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Kenneth Peiruza <kenneth at pirata.cat>wrote:
>>>
>>>>  PP-DE is acting SHAMEFULLY in this case.
>>>>
>>>> What about the personal data of people using MU? didn't you had a
>>>> principle about defending privacy?
>>>>
>>>> Shame.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Al 29/01/12 15:37, En/na Choms ha escrit:
>>>>
>>>> Presumption of innocence? Oh, wait, that doesn't exists on the US... if
>>>> so, imho, you have to wait for a trial before condemn someone... but who
>>>> cares about justice? :)
>>>>
>>>> 2012/1/29 Christian Hufgard <pp at christian-hufgard.de>
>>>>
>>>>> On 29.01.2012 11:29, Josep Sànchez wrote:
>>>>> >>  You are also allowed to lose your money by investing in criminal
>>>>> >> stock companies.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That's not the actual situation. In my country when anybody does any
>>>>> > action it is responsible for the collateral damages it might cause,
>>>>> and
>>>>> > it's even more serious if they could have avoided or previewed them
>>>>> and
>>>>> > didn't do it. It doesn't matter if its an individual, a government
>>>>> > officer or a policeman.
>>>>> > Are laws different in your country and in the USA?
>>>>>
>>>>>  Don't know about the US, but in germany police in nearly never made
>>>>> responsible for whatever they do. We had even our parties server raided
>>>>> a couple of days before an election without any consequences...
>>>>>
>>>>> > MU was not a "criminal company" *until* Virginia State authorities
>>>>> told
>>>>> > the Feds to seize it.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Of course they were, otherwise the hadn't been raided. (A judge or a
>>>>> jury still might decide something different)
>>>>>
>>>>> > People could hire their services until that moment
>>>>> > as they could do with any other company in the net. Financial
>>>>> services,
>>>>> > ISP's and even US tax authorities were operating normally with MU.
>>>>> Are
>>>>> > they also criminals?.
>>>>>
>>>>>  What for was Al Capone sent to Alcatraz? Murder or not paying his
>>>>> taxes?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >> Well, that's your point of view. I don't think the Feds or Virginia
>>>>> >> State are responsible to keep MU running. And if the court
>>>>> determines
>>>>> >> the raid was illegal, they gonna have to pay a pretty huge amount of
>>>>> >> money to Kim and his fellows.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > First was a matter of money, now of who has to run the service, what
>>>>> > next? :)
>>>>>
>>>>>  Finally it's the matter of reason. If the law in the US does not force
>>>>> the Feds to keep a service online they were told to shut down, why
>>>>> should they do so?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Christian
>>>>>  ____________________________________________________
>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talkpp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.nethttp://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talkpp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.nethttp://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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