[pp.int.general] PPEU at the PPI GA

[mattias.bjarnemalm at piratpartiet.se]

On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:57:19 +0100, Kenneth Peiruza <kenneth at pirata.cat>
wrote:
> On 08/03/12 11:27, mattias.bjarnemalm at piratpartiet.se wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:25:32 +0100, "Heiko Schramm"
>> <heiko.schramm11 at gmx.de>
>> wrote:
>>> Hallo Pirates,
>>>  
>>> I’m a European – and I feel like a European.
>>> You can read this in my homepage
>>> http://www.global-working.de/index_en.html
>>>  
>>> If you build a European Pirate Party I want to be a member of this
>>> party.
>>> I would like to pay a membership fee for this party beyond my
membership
>>> fee for the Pirate Party Germany.
>> If there was no way to be an individual member the European Pirate
Party
>> with individual voting rights, but an option to be a registered Donor
>> that
>> contributes to the party, would that still be interresting?
> I would personally be interested, but not as fan as if I could have my
> own voice & vote there as an individual.
>>> If we can’t have a party, let’s start with a Mailinglist or an
european
>>> wiki or an european homepage.
>>> Let’s start to create a statute and a first program for a European
>>> Pirate Party.
>>>  
>>> In Germany there is no delegation system in the whole Pirate Party.
>>> Why can’t we build an european party without delegation through
>>> national
>>> Pirate Parties?
>> We could, but what would be the function of such a party? If we look at
>> the EU elections they are still based on national parties, so if we
want
>> to
>> coordinate those elections it has to be based on coordination between
>> parties, not between individuals.
> Well, that is one of its functions. Another one might be acting as a
> citizen lobby for any European Institution related to us.

Then it is not a party, but a citizen lobby. Parties run for elections.
That is the very definition of a political party. Only known exception is
what EU calles "european polical party" that does not run for elections in
itself but consists of parties that does.

>>> My proposal: Every European, who wants to join in, can do this. 
>>> And from the moment someone is a member, he or she can vote on all
>>> europaen affairs, beyond a membership in a national Pirate Party.  
>> Vote on what European affairs? Where? Is there any interest in voting
for
>> what opinions an organization that don't partake in elections should
>> have?
> That can help a lot to make grow smaller PPs. Let's think, for instance,
> that on topics were PP-SE / PPI doesn't hold a defined position, let's
> say highways, i.e. to let pirate members of all the EU to propose what
> to vote and in some % let it influence Ergnstrom and Amelia's votes
> would rock.

If we start voting according to the results of liquid feedback in the
parliament in everything but our core issues we would either soon be
without a group to belong to or marginalized within that group. And that
would mean the end to any chance of affecting affairs within the European
parliament. 

Only possible way that we could ever have any success with liquid feedback
within the parliament is if we get strong enough to create our own group.
If we manage to form a group on our own liquid feedback would be able to
function as a tool to create policy for the group. But we would be at a
disadvantage in all negotiations with other groups if we try to implement
liquid feedback in the decision making process. This as the current system
requires focused experts that can make decisions about tabled amendments on
very short time whereas haste does not combine well with liquid feedback. 

> 
> That way, current people would feel empowered with right to vote in EU
> Parliament's decisions, so, our membership figures would boost all
> across the EU.
> 
> I.e., let's say that every Pirate Party has its own MEP (PP-SE:
> Ergnstrom) and if they get more than 1 (Amelia), then the latter can be
> influenced in some % by the direct vote of PP-SE members and another %
> by pirate party members all across Europe: i.e. 2/3rds - 1/3rd. In any
> case, as much as possible for you to accept.

If we split votes we loose influence. If we want to have any impact within
the European parliament all pirates should be coordinated and strive to
vote as a block on all critical issues. Either we all vote with our group,
or we all vote against our group. That way we maximize our influence.

> 
> That would give a strong message of direct grass-root participation,
> PP's unity, a value-added reason to become a pirate party member and an
> example of bypassing/hacking hierarchical organizations like
> EU-Parliament like did in other places where PP's make usage of
> direct/liquid democracy to decide what does people want to do outside of
> the Pirate Ideology.

Grass root participation will not benefit from us being marginalized. I am
all in favor of grass root participation, and having that gives strength to
our position within the parliament. But it is not a tool that can be used
to hack/bypass the structures within the European parliament.

/Mab
> 
>>>  
>>> Is there anyone interested in an European Pirate Party organized from
>>> the base?
> 
> Check the pads, you'll find a lot of stuff already written there:
> https://eu.piratenpad.de/table-of-contents
>>> If we are 20 people we can start. Call on me.  
>>>  
>>> Best regards 
>>> Heiko Schramm
>>> Pirate Party Germany
>>> http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Heiko_Schramm
>>>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Kenneth
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