[pp.int.general] The true core Pirates principles, -Serious attempt to get a workable consensus - TLDR version

[Antior]

My replies are below.

> I see.
>
> I've read through all the crap.
>
> You very methodically proceeded to strip out of Anouk's effort absolutely everything not in line with your strict liberal views. That is your strict right of opinion, of course, I would not fight that...
>
> ... however, your views, and how you go around about them... just got you 0,3% of the national vote in an important election ;) . In times when neighbouring pirates reach more or less 8%. You must be doing something utterly wrong, even if you do not want to admit it... for whatever sake.
>
>
> You can go on blocking any way you can any innovation on the matter, and you will probably stay around 0,3% in future elections.
>
>
> Being a Pirate is about hacking around the petrified beliefs and processes that have intertwined so badly along our past evolution that most of the people are unable to understand the world we live in, and trying to put it back on an healthy track towards (happy) coexistence for all...
>
> ... therefore, you must try to understand what happened in the past and for what reasons, what happens today, and have some kind of idea, at the right scale, of how you could bend all that in a way that might help you steer the evolution of society at large towards a view of what should be... much more compatible with your core values, BUT also as compatible as possible with what the global people at large might want to accept as a liveable society.
>
> If you have nothing to trade... you get nothing in exchange.
>
> So I'm afraid (yes right, so far it is only me, unless I get cheered ;) ) that you will not be able to outgrow your actual positions and prosper, make us all prosper.
>
> What you do or do not like... really matters, it gets aggregated into the total product and conditions what is possible or not depending on how vocal you are about your input. Judging from what happened at the PPI GA 2012 in Prague... I would say being too vocal with wrong ideas can derail us all. If you tried to look beyond your own views, and succeeded... then these must be in some way off the clean liberal path ;) , because you did not stray one inch from that one (otherwise perfectly recognisable in the Dutch Pirate Parties track record). But I believe it is much easier to believe you just failed in your stated intention.
>
> Antonio.
> PP-ES
>

This is real funny. Interpretations can be funny like that. Did you know 
that personally I'm not very liberal? I actually consider myself a 
socialist. I myself think it is good if the government is in control of 
medical costs, education costs, and what not, so these services are free 
for all citizens. I think the government should set an educational 
curriculum, one which does not favour any particular religious view, and 
one which focuses on evidence-based science. I am much in favour of the 
Scandinavian type social security state, even if this means we have to 
let go of some personal freedoms.

However, I know and accept that many pirates are liberals. I don't mind. 
They are still good people. When I talk with other pirates, I try to 
keep my personal views out of the conversation. Rather, I try and focus 
on COMMON GOALS.

Did I, in my attempt to be fair, go so far towards the liberal camp that 
you mistook me for someone with mainly liberal viewpoints? Interesting.

I think the shortlist of goals I put in my TLDR post *are* pirates 
common goals. Things both liberals, socialists, and also people with 
even other views can agree about. As I said in the long post, a lot of 
things Anouk said, I agree with personally. But I know they could offend 
liberal pirates, so I don't think they belong in the core pirate issues.

As Zbigniew pointed out, I accidentally forgot to mention the fact that 
privacy is also, or even mostly, about denying access to personal data 
in the first place, not just about controlling existing data. That can 
be added to my shortlist.

In my view, the only way socialist pirates like me, liberal pirates, 
right-wing (for whatever your definition of right-wing might be) pirates 
and left-wing pirates can live together in one pirate party is if we 
accept each other's views as valid, without imposing our own views 
beyond our common goals. In my view, Anouk *was* imposing her own 
non-pirate views. I attacked this post from a completely different 
angle: sometimes using my own arguments, sometimes using arguments I 
disagree with but I know other pirates hold.

It is a good practice to try and stand in someone else's shoes. And I 
think it helps all different pirates to get closer together.

Is it really THAT hard for people to do this? To imagine that someone 
else's view can be equally valid? To imagine why they think like that? 
To accept this and move beyond differences and look for similarities, 
which I found in the original goals?

If that is really the case, if pirates are generally unable to do this, 
I think I'm finally starting to understand what is the cause of all the 
fighting going on between pirates.


> Disagree all you want, but try being civil. Starting a reply off with
> "I've read through all the crap" does nothing but stop me from reading.
>
> --
> Anton Nordenfur
> <anton at nordenfur.se>
>

To be fair, I called my long message crap myself, mostly because it got 
more lengthy than I predicted. :)

TLDR; Once again: the only way to cooperate within such a diverse group 
is to keep to the things that REALLY connect us, our original ideal of 
*free information*, which implies a *transparant government* and can 
only work if the *right to privacy* is protected at the same time. 
Forget all else. There are other political parties that can deal with that.

- Antior