[pp.int.general] The true core Pirates principles, -Serious attempt to get a workable consensus - TLDR version

[Anouk Neeteson]

reflection, populism comes through ideas and is only valid as long as the
idea is unfulfilled and has no substance. To avoid this dangerous
phenomenon I introduced humanism.
Humanism is of a philosophical nature (with substance) and gives
ideological principles as where wirh populism there isn't any ideology.

What is misunderstood is that humanism would be a specific school of
thought. Or worse, is identified with existing movements. I speak here of
humanism BEYOND the different schools or movements. Maybe we have to define
our pirate humanism. But as a core principle, true humanism puts the
individual human in the center and I plead for using it.

Anouk,
by the way, although what  is in a name, I am of the male sex :)
On Sep 27, 2012 1:10 p.m., "Antior" <antior at piratenpartij.nl> wrote:

> My replies are below.
>
>  I see.
>>
>> I've read through all the crap.
>>
>> You very methodically proceeded to strip out of Anouk's effort absolutely
>> everything not in line with your strict liberal views. That is your strict
>> right of opinion, of course, I would not fight that...
>>
>> ... however, your views, and how you go around about them... just got you
>> 0,3% of the national vote in an important election ;) . In times when
>> neighbouring pirates reach more or less 8%. You must be doing something
>> utterly wrong, even if you do not want to admit it... for whatever sake.
>>
>>
>> You can go on blocking any way you can any innovation on the matter, and
>> you will probably stay around 0,3% in future elections.
>>
>>
>> Being a Pirate is about hacking around the petrified beliefs and
>> processes that have intertwined so badly along our past evolution that most
>> of the people are unable to understand the world we live in, and trying to
>> put it back on an healthy track towards (happy) coexistence for all...
>>
>> ... therefore, you must try to understand what happened in the past and
>> for what reasons, what happens today, and have some kind of idea, at the
>> right scale, of how you could bend all that in a way that might help you
>> steer the evolution of society at large towards a view of what should be...
>> much more compatible with your core values, BUT also as compatible as
>> possible with what the global people at large might want to accept as a
>> liveable society.
>>
>> If you have nothing to trade... you get nothing in exchange.
>>
>> So I'm afraid (yes right, so far it is only me, unless I get cheered ;) )
>> that you will not be able to outgrow your actual positions and prosper,
>> make us all prosper.
>>
>> What you do or do not like... really matters, it gets aggregated into the
>> total product and conditions what is possible or not depending on how vocal
>> you are about your input. Judging from what happened at the PPI GA 2012 in
>> Prague... I would say being too vocal with wrong ideas can derail us all.
>> If you tried to look beyond your own views, and succeeded... then these
>> must be in some way off the clean liberal path ;) , because you did not
>> stray one inch from that one (otherwise perfectly recognisable in the Dutch
>> Pirate Parties track record). But I believe it is much easier to believe
>> you just failed in your stated intention.
>>
>> Antonio.
>> PP-ES
>>
>>
> This is real funny. Interpretations can be funny like that. Did you know
> that personally I'm not very liberal? I actually consider myself a
> socialist. I myself think it is good if the government is in control of
> medical costs, education costs, and what not, so these services are free
> for all citizens. I think the government should set an educational
> curriculum, one which does not favour any particular religious view, and
> one which focuses on evidence-based science. I am much in favour of the
> Scandinavian type social security state, even if this means we have to let
> go of some personal freedoms.
>
> However, I know and accept that many pirates are liberals. I don't mind.
> They are still good people. When I talk with other pirates, I try to keep
> my personal views out of the conversation. Rather, I try and focus on
> COMMON GOALS.
>
> Did I, in my attempt to be fair, go so far towards the liberal camp that
> you mistook me for someone with mainly liberal viewpoints? Interesting.
>
> I think the shortlist of goals I put in my TLDR post *are* pirates common
> goals. Things both liberals, socialists, and also people with even other
> views can agree about. As I said in the long post, a lot of things Anouk
> said, I agree with personally. But I know they could offend liberal
> pirates, so I don't think they belong in the core pirate issues.
>
> As Zbigniew pointed out, I accidentally forgot to mention the fact that
> privacy is also, or even mostly, about denying access to personal data in
> the first place, not just about controlling existing data. That can be
> added to my shortlist.
>
> In my view, the only way socialist pirates like me, liberal pirates,
> right-wing (for whatever your definition of right-wing might be) pirates
> and left-wing pirates can live together in one pirate party is if we accept
> each other's views as valid, without imposing our own views beyond our
> common goals. In my view, Anouk *was* imposing her own non-pirate views. I
> attacked this post from a completely different angle: sometimes using my
> own arguments, sometimes using arguments I disagree with but I know other
> pirates hold.
>
> It is a good practice to try and stand in someone else's shoes. And I
> think it helps all different pirates to get closer together.
>
> Is it really THAT hard for people to do this? To imagine that someone
> else's view can be equally valid? To imagine why they think like that? To
> accept this and move beyond differences and look for similarities, which I
> found in the original goals?
>
> If that is really the case, if pirates are generally unable to do this, I
> think I'm finally starting to understand what is the cause of all the
> fighting going on between pirates.
>
>
>  Disagree all you want, but try being civil. Starting a reply off with
>> "I've read through all the crap" does nothing but stop me from reading.
>>
>> --
>> Anton Nordenfur
>> <anton at nordenfur.se>
>>
>>
> To be fair, I called my long message crap myself, mostly because it got
> more lengthy than I predicted. :)
>
> TLDR; Once again: the only way to cooperate within such a diverse group is
> to keep to the things that REALLY connect us, our original ideal of *free
> information*, which implies a *transparant government* and can only work if
> the *right to privacy* is protected at the same time. Forget all else.
> There are other political parties that can deal with that.
>
> - Antior
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