[pp.int.general] The true core Pirates principles, -Serious attempt to get a workable consensus - TLDR version

[Charly Pache]

I agree with this view concerning humanism (Anouk)

The ideas I try to broadcast with the Pirate Party:

Freedom/liberties (for the individuals, very large concept)
Respect (towards other individuals)
Transparency and Justice (from the State, which has to serve the interests,
protect the freedom of every individual and not of any group of
individuals, or not to be the tool used by groups to limit liberties)

Cheers, Charly

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Anouk Neeteson <jakobsheep at gmail.com>wrote:

> reflection, populism comes through ideas and is only valid as long as the
> idea is unfulfilled and has no substance. To avoid this dangerous
> phenomenon I introduced humanism.
> Humanism is of a philosophical nature (with substance) and gives
> ideological principles as where wirh populism there isn't any ideology.
>
> What is misunderstood is that humanism would be a specific school of
> thought. Or worse, is identified with existing movements. I speak here of
> humanism BEYOND the different schools or movements. Maybe we have to define
> our pirate humanism. But as a core principle, true humanism puts the
> individual human in the center and I plead for using it.
>
> Anouk,
> by the way, although what  is in a name, I am of the male sex :)
> On Sep 27, 2012 1:10 p.m., "Antior" <antior at piratenpartij.nl> wrote:
>
>> My replies are below.
>>
>>  I see.
>>>
>>> I've read through all the crap.
>>>
>>> You very methodically proceeded to strip out of Anouk's effort
>>> absolutely everything not in line with your strict liberal views. That is
>>> your strict right of opinion, of course, I would not fight that...
>>>
>>> ... however, your views, and how you go around about them... just got
>>> you 0,3% of the national vote in an important election ;) . In times when
>>> neighbouring pirates reach more or less 8%. You must be doing something
>>> utterly wrong, even if you do not want to admit it... for whatever sake.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can go on blocking any way you can any innovation on the matter, and
>>> you will probably stay around 0,3% in future elections.
>>>
>>>
>>> Being a Pirate is about hacking around the petrified beliefs and
>>> processes that have intertwined so badly along our past evolution that most
>>> of the people are unable to understand the world we live in, and trying to
>>> put it back on an healthy track towards (happy) coexistence for all...
>>>
>>> ... therefore, you must try to understand what happened in the past and
>>> for what reasons, what happens today, and have some kind of idea, at the
>>> right scale, of how you could bend all that in a way that might help you
>>> steer the evolution of society at large towards a view of what should be...
>>> much more compatible with your core values, BUT also as compatible as
>>> possible with what the global people at large might want to accept as a
>>> liveable society.
>>>
>>> If you have nothing to trade... you get nothing in exchange.
>>>
>>> So I'm afraid (yes right, so far it is only me, unless I get cheered ;)
>>> ) that you will not be able to outgrow your actual positions and prosper,
>>> make us all prosper.
>>>
>>> What you do or do not like... really matters, it gets aggregated into
>>> the total product and conditions what is possible or not depending on how
>>> vocal you are about your input. Judging from what happened at the PPI GA
>>> 2012 in Prague... I would say being too vocal with wrong ideas can derail
>>> us all. If you tried to look beyond your own views, and succeeded... then
>>> these must be in some way off the clean liberal path ;) , because you did
>>> not stray one inch from that one (otherwise perfectly recognisable in the
>>> Dutch Pirate Parties track record). But I believe it is much easier to
>>> believe you just failed in your stated intention.
>>>
>>> Antonio.
>>> PP-ES
>>>
>>>
>> This is real funny. Interpretations can be funny like that. Did you know
>> that personally I'm not very liberal? I actually consider myself a
>> socialist. I myself think it is good if the government is in control of
>> medical costs, education costs, and what not, so these services are free
>> for all citizens. I think the government should set an educational
>> curriculum, one which does not favour any particular religious view, and
>> one which focuses on evidence-based science. I am much in favour of the
>> Scandinavian type social security state, even if this means we have to let
>> go of some personal freedoms.
>>
>> However, I know and accept that many pirates are liberals. I don't mind.
>> They are still good people. When I talk with other pirates, I try to keep
>> my personal views out of the conversation. Rather, I try and focus on
>> COMMON GOALS.
>>
>> Did I, in my attempt to be fair, go so far towards the liberal camp that
>> you mistook me for someone with mainly liberal viewpoints? Interesting.
>>
>> I think the shortlist of goals I put in my TLDR post *are* pirates common
>> goals. Things both liberals, socialists, and also people with even other
>> views can agree about. As I said in the long post, a lot of things Anouk
>> said, I agree with personally. But I know they could offend liberal
>> pirates, so I don't think they belong in the core pirate issues.
>>
>> As Zbigniew pointed out, I accidentally forgot to mention the fact that
>> privacy is also, or even mostly, about denying access to personal data in
>> the first place, not just about controlling existing data. That can be
>> added to my shortlist.
>>
>> In my view, the only way socialist pirates like me, liberal pirates,
>> right-wing (for whatever your definition of right-wing might be) pirates
>> and left-wing pirates can live together in one pirate party is if we accept
>> each other's views as valid, without imposing our own views beyond our
>> common goals. In my view, Anouk *was* imposing her own non-pirate views. I
>> attacked this post from a completely different angle: sometimes using my
>> own arguments, sometimes using arguments I disagree with but I know other
>> pirates hold.
>>
>> It is a good practice to try and stand in someone else's shoes. And I
>> think it helps all different pirates to get closer together.
>>
>> Is it really THAT hard for people to do this? To imagine that someone
>> else's view can be equally valid? To imagine why they think like that? To
>> accept this and move beyond differences and look for similarities, which I
>> found in the original goals?
>>
>> If that is really the case, if pirates are generally unable to do this, I
>> think I'm finally starting to understand what is the cause of all the
>> fighting going on between pirates.
>>
>>
>>  Disagree all you want, but try being civil. Starting a reply off with
>>> "I've read through all the crap" does nothing but stop me from reading.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anton Nordenfur
>>> <anton at nordenfur.se>
>>>
>>>
>> To be fair, I called my long message crap myself, mostly because it got
>> more lengthy than I predicted. :)
>>
>> TLDR; Once again: the only way to cooperate within such a diverse group
>> is to keep to the things that REALLY connect us, our original ideal of
>> *free information*, which implies a *transparant government* and can only
>> work if the *right to privacy* is protected at the same time. Forget all
>> else. There are other political parties that can deal with that.
>>
>> - Antior
>> ______________________________**______________________
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>>
>
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