[pp.int.general] The true core Pirates principles, -Serious attempt to get a workable consensus - TLDR version

Thu Sep 27 14:33:08 CEST 2012

It IS really that hard, Antior, for too many among us.

If you reread my statements: 

"I would say being too vocal with wrong ideas can derail us all. If you tried to look beyond your own views, and succeeded... then these must be in some way off the clean liberal path ;) , because you did not stray one inch from that one (otherwise perfectly recognisable in the Dutch Pirate Parties track record). But I believe it is much easier to believe you just failed in your stated intention."

Even if I also anticipated what would be much easier to believe, and thus taken for granted in the statistical behaviour of a (large) crowd, I covered exactly the real case... not being liberal you nonetheless included so much of the trending majority views in your party... that you sounded perfectly liberal.

Theoretically, there should be nothing wrong with being an original liberal, much like there is nothing wrong with being an original anarchist, or even an original communist.

But in practice, all of the original meanings have been hijacked and manipulated in the biggest ideological propaganda war ever waged, still raging on unabated.

We have to delve really deep to find any real truth nowadays, an effort most people can not do on top of struggling to make ends meet every month.

That is why most people feel ideologically lost and do not know what to vote next to get out of the mess.

Which is why the only useful thing to do, as a new party, is to analyse THE WHOLE of the mess, and if ever possible, come with a clever way out of it.

Partial solutions, like the Greens tried, focussing only on an reduced part of the issue where terms may be easier to understand, can yield temporary gains, as they got, but these erode when people understand they do not have the answers to the true questions either.

When focussing on COMMON GOALS, I go all the way. We have to be able, some way, to live ALL on this beautiful planet of ours. One has to ditch ABSOLUTELY ALL that might stand in the way of this. Maybe not all at once, but at least gradually until we achieve equilibrium.

That is where I see Pirate Parties play a decisive role, if they are ever capable to shape up for it.

The partial focus, like with the greens, already failed clamorously. It would be stupid to want to walk the same road again, even with a different subset of values and issues.

We have to ditch whatever is invalid, in no matter what view, be it the liberal, the socialist, the conservative, the anarchist, or no matter what other one. Trying to build something that can hold many untruths, some mutually exclusive, together, ... is an impossible assignment any sound mind should reject.

What seems very hard to do for an awful lot of people, is to ditch many untruths that are part of their traditional ideologic core values.

And what will be impossible for the Pirate Parties... is to find itself a core limited enough to include everybody, but leave everybodies untruths out of the basis.

As one can see almost everyday now, through our yet famous shitstorms... these incompatibilities show up at the most unexpected places and most unwarranted times and make our lives miserable anyway unless we deal with them and put things clear.

What is going on among pirates... is that they are trying to deal with these issues in rather improvised and clumsy ways, coping with the chaos while they try as much as they can (not that much, mass dynamics wise) to understand what is happening to them.

And because of the mass dynamics involved in the ways of operating... it is very hard to help even if one happens to know what could help.

Antonio.

> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:11:00 +0200
> From: antior at piratenpartij.nl
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] The true core Pirates principles, -Serious attempt to get a workable consensus - TLDR version
> 
> My replies are below.
> 
> > I see.
> >
> > I've read through all the crap.
> >
> > You very methodically proceeded to strip out of Anouk's effort absolutely everything not in line with your strict liberal views. That is your strict right of opinion, of course, I would not fight that...
> >
> > ... however, your views, and how you go around about them... just got you 0,3% of the national vote in an important election ;) . In times when neighbouring pirates reach more or less 8%. You must be doing something utterly wrong, even if you do not want to admit it... for whatever sake.
> >
> >
> > You can go on blocking any way you can any innovation on the matter, and you will probably stay around 0,3% in future elections.
> >
> >
> > Being a Pirate is about hacking around the petrified beliefs and processes that have intertwined so badly along our past evolution that most of the people are unable to understand the world we live in, and trying to put it back on an healthy track towards (happy) coexistence for all...
> >
> > ... therefore, you must try to understand what happened in the past and for what reasons, what happens today, and have some kind of idea, at the right scale, of how you could bend all that in a way that might help you steer the evolution of society at large towards a view of what should be... much more compatible with your core values, BUT also as compatible as possible with what the global people at large might want to accept as a liveable society.
> >
> > If you have nothing to trade... you get nothing in exchange.
> >
> > So I'm afraid (yes right, so far it is only me, unless I get cheered ;) ) that you will not be able to outgrow your actual positions and prosper, make us all prosper.
> >
> > What you do or do not like... really matters, it gets aggregated into the total product and conditions what is possible or not depending on how vocal you are about your input. Judging from what happened at the PPI GA 2012 in Prague... I would say being too vocal with wrong ideas can derail us all. If you tried to look beyond your own views, and succeeded... then these must be in some way off the clean liberal path ;) , because you did not stray one inch from that one (otherwise perfectly recognisable in the Dutch Pirate Parties track record). But I believe it is much easier to believe you just failed in your stated intention.
> >
> > Antonio.
> > PP-ES
> >
> 
> This is real funny. Interpretations can be funny like that. Did you know 
> that personally I'm not very liberal? I actually consider myself a 
> socialist. I myself think it is good if the government is in control of 
> medical costs, education costs, and what not, so these services are free 
> for all citizens. I think the government should set an educational 
> curriculum, one which does not favour any particular religious view, and 
> one which focuses on evidence-based science. I am much in favour of the 
> Scandinavian type social security state, even if this means we have to 
> let go of some personal freedoms.
> 
> However, I know and accept that many pirates are liberals. I don't mind. 
> They are still good people. When I talk with other pirates, I try to 
> keep my personal views out of the conversation. Rather, I try and focus 
> on COMMON GOALS.
> 
> Did I, in my attempt to be fair, go so far towards the liberal camp that 
> you mistook me for someone with mainly liberal viewpoints? Interesting.
> 
> I think the shortlist of goals I put in my TLDR post *are* pirates 
> common goals. Things both liberals, socialists, and also people with 
> even other views can agree about. As I said in the long post, a lot of 
> things Anouk said, I agree with personally. But I know they could offend 
> liberal pirates, so I don't think they belong in the core pirate issues.
> 
> As Zbigniew pointed out, I accidentally forgot to mention the fact that 
> privacy is also, or even mostly, about denying access to personal data 
> in the first place, not just about controlling existing data. That can 
> be added to my shortlist.
> 
> In my view, the only way socialist pirates like me, liberal pirates, 
> right-wing (for whatever your definition of right-wing might be) pirates 
> and left-wing pirates can live together in one pirate party is if we 
> accept each other's views as valid, without imposing our own views 
> beyond our common goals. In my view, Anouk *was* imposing her own 
> non-pirate views. I attacked this post from a completely different 
> angle: sometimes using my own arguments, sometimes using arguments I 
> disagree with but I know other pirates hold.
> 
> It is a good practice to try and stand in someone else's shoes. And I 
> think it helps all different pirates to get closer together.
> 
> Is it really THAT hard for people to do this? To imagine that someone 
> else's view can be equally valid? To imagine why they think like that? 
> To accept this and move beyond differences and look for similarities, 
> which I found in the original goals?
> 
> If that is really the case, if pirates are generally unable to do this, 
> I think I'm finally starting to understand what is the cause of all the 
> fighting going on between pirates.
> 
> 
> > Disagree all you want, but try being civil. Starting a reply off with
> > "I've read through all the crap" does nothing but stop me from reading.
> >
> > --
> > Anton Nordenfur
> > <anton at nordenfur.se>
> >
> 
> To be fair, I called my long message crap myself, mostly because it got 
> more lengthy than I predicted. :)
> 
> TLDR; Once again: the only way to cooperate within such a diverse group 
> is to keep to the things that REALLY connect us, our original ideal of 
> *free information*, which implies a *transparant government* and can 
> only work if the *right to privacy* is protected at the same time. 
> Forget all else. There are other political parties that can deal with that.
> 
> - Antior
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

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