[pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference Kazan 2013

Wed Apr 3 15:25:45 CEST 2013

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy

On 4 April 2013 00:22, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Formal?
>
> You have plenipotenciary powers to decide this on your own, as in
> personally involved, on behalf of the whole of your party?
>
>
> A party which, it must be said, has not published a single comma on this
> list since you certainly shamed them so deeply...
>
>
> You must be out of your mind.
>
>
> Antonio.
>
> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:20:36 +0200
>
> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com
> > CC: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference
> Kazan 2013
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 13:17:19 +0000, Antonio Garcia <
> ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > After the infamous letter you posted lately, I must say I admire your
> > > ignorant guts :) .
> > >
> > >
> > > Antonio.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is ANOTHER formal complaint about Antonio's behaviour.
> >
> >
> > >> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:13:51 +0200
> > >> From: kenneth at pirata.cat
> > >> To: ningunotro at hotmail.com
> > >> CC: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
> > >> Conference Kazan 2013
> > >>
> > >> Antonio, points are points, insults are insults. You simply keep on
> > >> insulting anyone not supporting your desires.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Is insulting people an acceptable behaviour in this mailing list?
> > >>
> > >> This is a formal complaint about Antonio's behaviour.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >>
> > >> Kenneth
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:51:10 +0000, Antonio Garcia
> > >> <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Your wishful thinking is pathetic.
> > >> >
> > >> > I do not need to be a delegate to Kazan for the Spanish Pirate Party
> > to
> > >> > have inalienable rights. I have these on my own as a human being,
> and
> > >> > as
> > >> an
> > >> > equal among pirates.
> > >> >
> > >> > By their own Rules of Procedure, provisional as they might be but
> > >> > deemed
> > >> > temporarily enforceable unless a General Assembly ruled otherwise
> > >> (which,
> > >> > thanks to the terrible efficiency of General Assemblies has not
> > >> > happened
> > >> > yet :) )... anonymous complaints are acceptable in matters regarding
> > >> > infringement of PPI Statutes.
> > >> >
> > >> > What happened at the PPI GA in Prague and showed up in several CoA
> > >> rulings
> > >> > qualifies largely as such.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > So, no matter how cleverly you or anybody else thought he was
> > >> scheming...
> > >> > you are fucked assholes.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > And PPI and PPI Board are walking on eggs in this...
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Antonio.
> > >> >
> > >> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:02:23 +0200
> > >> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
> > >> > Conference Kazan 2013
> > >> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
> > >> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com;
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> > All your logic goes linked to your personal wishes, not to rules or
> > >> > statutes.
> > >> > Current PPI statutes don't accept personal/annonymous complaints, so
> > >> stop
> > >> > crying and at least get recognized as the official delegate of your
> > >> party
> > >> > before complaining/crying/begging any longer.
> > >> > So far, for what I know, your fellow party members don't want you to
> > >> > represent them at all.
> > >> > Go fix that or shout up :)
> > >> > Be really logic, my friend. Don't just say you are .
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Salut!
> > >> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> escribió:
> > >> > You have a weird sense of logic and ethic, my "friend".
> > >> >
> > >> > I do not need to propose anything. This is pending matter since it
> > was
> > >> > duly introduced as an anonymous complaint to the Court of
> > Arbitration.
> > >> >
> > >> > And it gets absolute priority at the PPI General Assembly because
> the
> > >> > GA
> > >> > is the supreme body of appeal when the CoA fails to deliver, and
> > >> > because
> > >> > its outcome impacts on voting rights at the same General Assembly.
> > >> >
> > >> > Vote outcomes could be different if the vote of the Catalan Pirate
> > >> > Party
> > >> > are deemed valid... so solving this issue comes first.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > And not doing it in such a way raises that many LOGICAL and ETHICAL
> > >> > questions within PPI...
> > >> >
> > >> > ... that a FORK to the whole movement that provides a safe harbour
> > for
> > >> > logically and ethically consistent Pirates... is not to e ruled out
> > if
> > >> PPI
> > >> > utterly fails in this.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Either way... you are done.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Antonio.
> > >> >
> > >> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:18:47 +0200
> > >> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
> > >> > Conference Kazan 2013
> > >> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
> > >> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com;
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> > To propose anything... You need to do it through your officiap
> > >> > representatives.
> > >> > The members of PPI are its parties, not its party members, and so
> far
> > >> you
> > >> > haven't been appointed as PP-ES delegate.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Salut!
> > >> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> escribió:
> > >> > It's a bit late to try to get a quorum lowering participation costs
> > for
> > >> > remotely represented members to zero or almost zero.
> > >> >
> > >> > Holding the GA in Kazan has been a strategical move only to benefit
> > >> > Gregory's position since the very beginning of it.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, PP of Russia is not even registered yet.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, there was such an interest in organizing this in Russia...
> > >> that
> > >> > there were two concurrent bids from there.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, the meetings where the outcome of the selection process
> was
> > >> > crafted... were densely populated with participants.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, there is maybe still another meeting scheduled for Kiev...
> > >> > theoretically stealth approved through "administrative silence"...
> > from
> > >> > Gregory?
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, the russian bids were so consistent... the venue for Kazan
> > is
> > >> > not the originally offered venue anymore.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, the Kazan offer is headed towards being the most expensive
> > in
> > >> > the history of the pirate movement... only affordable for local
> > >> > russians
> > >> > and the international pirate dandies with unlimited travel budgets.
> > >> >
> > >> > And certainly, it will be a place where Gregory will easily find
> > straw
> > >> men
> > >> > to hold his many delegation representations. How many this time,
> > >> Gregory?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Surely, he aims for reelection, and he is bureaucratically working
> > with
> > >> > his elbows towards it to the best of his abilities... and 150.000
> > >> > rubles
> > >> of
> > >> > personal subsidies.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I am tired of all the bulshit stacked into the Pirate Movement in
> > such
> > >> > a
> > >> > short timeframe because of the lack of genuine leadership and vision
> > in
> > >> the
> > >> > Pirate Swarm.
> > >> >
> > >> > It has become an IDIOCRACY some demagogues know far too well how to
> > >> > navigate with populism and mob rule.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If Kazan does not put an end to the endless horrors against logic
> and
> > >> > ethic imposed onto the Pirate Movement in Prague (I witnessed that
> in
> > >> utter
> > >> > awe, do not know if it was more or less than in previous GAs)...
> then
> > >> the
> > >> > Pirate Movement is a walking Zombie.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > One single and simple test to begin with:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1) The bogus admission of the Catalan Pirate Party as a full member
> > of
> > >> the
> > >> > PPI after a mere propaganda session, a blackmail to the Assembly,
> and
> > >> mob
> > >> > rule to impose a vote on a matter not being an ad-hoc competence of
> > the
> > >> > General Assembly, instrumentalizing a non-motion of the Australian
> > >> Pirate
> > >> > Party... and ignoring it did not even reach the required two-thirds
> > >> > majority.
> > >> >
> > >> > The Statutes of PPI were blatantly ignored first, and consciously
> > >> violated
> > >> > in a sentence of the Court of Arbitration that will certainly be
> > >> > awarded
> > >> > the Nobel Prize for utter stupidity as soon as it is created.
> > >> >
> > >> > I presented a very argumented and of unavoidable consequences
> > complaint
> > >> to
> > >> > the Court of Arbitration... anonymously, as I could not get the
> > backing
> > >> of
> > >> > a spineless Board of the Spanish Pirate Party,... carefully
> following
> > >> the
> > >> > published guidelines of the Rules of Procedure of the Court of
> > >> > Arbitration,... that had decided -without a hint of disapproval
> > >> anywhere-
> > >> > that it would accept anonymous complaints of anybody in case of
> > >> > infringement to the PPI Statutes.
> > >> >
> > >> > There was only one way to stop the complaint of achieving its
> goal...
> > >> > render the CoA absolutely inoperative so that it could not resolve
> > into
> > >> a
> > >> > result it could not tamper with.
> > >> >
> > >> > PP-CH threatened to SUE the PPI in court in such a clumsy way it
> > >> > offered
> > >> > Gregory an dreamed excuse to impose the resignation of the Court of
> > >> > Arbitration as a Salomonic (rather satanic) "solution" the Swiss
> > could
> > >> be
> > >> > happy with or show muscle... and they folded.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > As the voting rights of a bogus member are being contested... either
> > we
> > >> > solve this adequately on-line BEFORE the assembly (and then maybe
> > more
> > >> > members seeing some hope is still a push to get the needed remote
> > >> > participants on board)... or you will be fighting it out during the
> > two
> > >> > days, unable to tackle anything else (what a waste of money and time
> > >> > for
> > >> > all those present in Kazan), and sign the demise of a pirate
> movement
> > >> > already lacking credibility for any intelligent being.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Antonio García.
> > >> > (by some kind of weird disfunctional wonder... official member of
> the
> > >> > Board of the Spanish Pirate Party... while it lasts :( ).
> > >> >
> > >> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 03:02:40 +0200
> > >> > From: jelena.the.one at gmail.com
> > >> > To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
> Conference
> > >> > Kazan 2013
> > >> >
> > >> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas
> on
> > >> this
> > >> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are
> > good.
> > >> >
> > >> > that's what I am doing, that's community management, not campaign
> and
> > >> > advertising :) thanx for having time to reply
> > >> > I really believe conference fees should be none for remote
> > >> > participants,
> > >> > since Kazan is that far and that expensive. Excuse e Gregory, but
> > fees
> > >> are
> > >> > 3 do 4 times higher then in Prague.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Simon Frew
> > >> <simon.frew at pirateparty.org.au>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >>Jelena said:
> > >> >
> > >> >>It was not a junket. it was good opportunity for networking. And
> > there
> > >> > is less trolling and hate speech when you meet someone face 2 face.
> > >> >
> > >> > That's
> > >> > good if you can afford it, none of our members seem to have the
> > spare
> > >> > funds to travel to Russia for a two day meeting, and we can't afford
> > >> > to
> > >> > fund them out of our limited budget.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >>I think conference few should be much lower for remote participants.
> > Or
> > >> >>it should be no fee at all.
> > >> >
> > >> > Those
> > >> > of us attending as remote delegates cannot register to attend.
> > >> > Leaving
> > >> > us to wonder, will there even be remote delegates this year? Will it
> > >> > be
> > >> > any better than previous years?
> > >> >
> > >> > I think I speak for many non-European
> > >> > parties when I say we are looking for reassurance and evidence that
> > we
> > >> > wont get screwed over and left out yet again. If this years GA is as
> > >> > farcical as the last two, the organisation will start to crumble.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >>PPI has no budget, and I as a board member didn't use any
> > >> > money so far. Even for runnign FB campaign resources (maybe) could
> be
> >
> > >> > given from PP DE.
> > >> >>When I realized it I gave up making a project proposal
> > >> > and going trough bureaucracy for little campaign
> > >> >>(managing FB ads from
> > >> > Serbia is cheaper than in other countries, ofc talking about price
> > per
> > >> > click / per 1000 views)
> > >> >
> > >> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas
> on
> > >> this
> > >> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are
> > good.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >>PPI board members, as far as I know, will go to
> > >> > Kazan from their own money too. PPI has no budget even to send board
> > >> > to
> > >> > PPI conference.
> > >> >>And I agree it is not cheap even when you are flying
> > >> > from Europe, I calculated costs of flight ticket and hotel and it
> was
> >
> > >> > cca 1.000 eur (~ 1.200 AU dollars), from the Balkans.
> > >> >
> > >> > Surely
> > >> > remote participation would be more important than ever, yet despite
> > >> > repeated efforts through multiple channels we cannot get a response
> > >> > reassuring people who can't attend in person that they will be able
> > to
> > >> > participate and that remote delegates will be taken seriously.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > What does the Board want the money for? How much does it want?
> > >> >
> > >> > We are reluctant
> > >> > to give money
> > >> > to an organisation that we feel effectively excluded from, with no
> > >> > idea
> > >> > what it will do. The trust we have in the PPI, if you can't tell is
> > >> > basically non-existant at the moment. The Co-Chair publicly
> attacking
> > >> > us
> > >> > for not wanting to spend thousands of dollars to go to Russia
> > doesn't
> > >> > exactly give us confidence any money that goes to PPI will be used
> > >> > wisely.
> > >> >
> > >> > Mab wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >>The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform
> > for
> > >> > our general assemblies. Over the years we have developed
> > >> >>quite a few
> > >> > fetures to make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are
> > >> > entirely
> > >> > text based and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that
> > >> >>people can attend
> > >> > regardless of when they have the time to be online. Any single round
> > >> > of
> > >> > voting spans at least 24 hours to facilitate
> > >> >>that everyone can vote.
> > >> >
> > >> > This sounds like the exact sort of thing that is needed for PPI.
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Simon
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:18 AM, <mattias.bjarnemalm at piratpartiet.se
> >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform
> > for
> > >> our
> > >> > general assemblies. Over the years we have developed quite a few
> > >> > fetures
> > >> to
> > >> > make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are entirely text
> > >> > based
> > >> > and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that people can attend regardless of
> > when
> > >> > they have the time to be online. Any single round of voting spans at
> > >> least
> > >> > 24 hours to facilitate that everyone can vote.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I am pretty sure a similar model would work for PPI, which, given
> its
> > >> > delegate system, would have far less participants.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If ppi where interested I am sure we could provide the technical
> > >> know-how
> > >> > of how to set up a web forum.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > All the best
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Mab
> > >> >
> > >> > PP-SE
> > >> >
> > >> > EU-branch
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On 2013-04-02 10:41, Simon Frew wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > We just use cheap video streaming with an IRC channel where we
> verify
> > >> >
> > >> > who can vote and give them voice. Everyone with a computer monitors
> > >> >
> > >> > IRC so remote delegates get adequately represented. I think it costs
> > >> >
> > >> > about $50 for the streaming, but if its entirely online a Mumble
> > >> >
> > >> > server and a Pad would about do it. When we hired all of the gear it
> > >> >
> > >> > cost a total of $150 or so, but we have members who can provide a
> lot
> > >> >
> > >> > of infrastructure out of their own gear.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > It was suggested on #PPI IRC that one could be held on Google+, PP
> > >> >
> > >> > California meet using it (or did when I attended a meeting once) and
> > >> >
> > >> > it worked well. It means dealing with Google and subsequent privacy
> > >> >
> > >> > implications but it has video and is free.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If there wont be any remote participation in the GA we might as well
> > >> >
> > >> > hold our own on Mumble. You guys could even have the honour of
> > hosting
> > >> >
> > >> > the first one. Although PPAU has its own Mumble server too. Just
> > start
> > >> >
> > >> > it later in your day time so I dont have to get up too early to
> > >> >
> > >> > attend. ;)
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Simon
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Aza <rata_0071 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > 2013/4/1 Simon Frew <simon.frew at pirateparty.org.au>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > We run remote participation for every congress in Australia and it
> > >> > costs
> > >> > virtually nothing. See our official complaint letter for how to do
> > it.
> > >> The
> > >> > idea it is expensive is false.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Hey Simon could the PPAU provide the infrastructure for a virtual
> GA?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > At the PPAR we have a mumble server that could be used if you dont
> > miss
> > >> > video.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If we cant participate in the same one we may just as well have a
> > >> parallel
> > >> > virtual GA
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > regards
> > >> >
> > >> > aza
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > President of the Intergalactic Pirate Party (IPP)
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ____________________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > >> >
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> > [1]
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Links:
> > >> >
> > >> > ------
> > >> >
> > >> > [1]
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ____________________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > >> >
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ____________________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > >> >
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ____________________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > >> >
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/attachments/20130404/3048259d/attachment-0001.html>