[pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference Kazan 2013

Wed Apr 3 16:08:34 CEST 2013

Dear Antonio,
As usual you're wrong, again. I'm starting to think that you use fallacious
arguments in order to make us waste our precious time in rebating you and
I'm getting tired of it. For Christ sake, you're an adult, act like one!!!
I understand that you're not very happy with our way of working, but you
can't change it so please use your prominent brain to achieve some other
accomplishment.
As a party we only have one spokesperson, he's the only one who talks in
name of us and as far as I know there's been no formal or informal complain
from anyone about Kenneth messages in this list or anywhere else. As long
as there's no complain, there's no reason to deny that he has our full
support, but that doesn't mean that everything he says is a Pirates de
Catalunya official statement. I'm sure that there are some members that
don't share Kenneth choices of words, but most of us (not only catalans)
are extremely tired of your emails. Keep in mind that it's growing more
difficult everyday to answer correctly to someone I am personally ashamed
of as a pirate.

2013/4/3 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>

> That is nice to know. So I may, together with al the international
> colleagues on this list, assume that the silence on the part of any Catalan
> Pirate Party individuals either under their personal authority or
> representing the party... can be understood as FULL SUPPORT for the
> behaviour of Kenneth and telltale sign of their logical and ethical
> standards?
>
> If PPI officials and fellow Pirate Party delegates from around the world
> also take the silent approach as acceptance and likemindedness...
>
> ... well, I feel forced to ask everybody to speak up to avoid being ranged
> among those with that default behaviour.
>
> I would not like to blame innocent people further on.
>
>
> Antonio.
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:28:08 +0200
> From: jordi at soucheiron.cat
>
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference
> Kazan 2013
>
> Dear Antonio,
> As usual you're wrong, Kenneth as our spokesperson has our full support.
> Please don't fill our inboxes with useless emails that divert
> the attention from important matters.
> Thank you
>
>
> 2013/4/3 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>
> Formal?
>
> You have plenipotenciary powers to decide this on your own, as in
> personally involved, on behalf of the whole of your party?
>
>
> A party which, it must be said, has not published a single comma on this
> list since you certainly shamed them so deeply...
>
>
> You must be out of your mind.
>
>
> Antonio.
>
> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:20:36 +0200
>
> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com
> > CC: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference
> Kazan 2013
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 13:17:19 +0000, Antonio Garcia <
> ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > After the infamous letter you posted lately, I must say I admire your
> > > ignorant guts :) .
> > >
> > >
> > > Antonio.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is ANOTHER formal complaint about Antonio's behaviour.
> >
> >
> > >> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:13:51 +0200
> > >> From: kenneth at pirata.cat
> > >> To: ningunotro at hotmail.com
> > >> CC: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
> > >> Conference Kazan 2013
> > >>
> > >> Antonio, points are points, insults are insults. You simply keep on
> > >> insulting anyone not supporting your desires.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Is insulting people an acceptable behaviour in this mailing list?
> > >>
> > >> This is a formal complaint about Antonio's behaviour.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >>
> > >> Kenneth
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:51:10 +0000, Antonio Garcia
> > >> <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Your wishful thinking is pathetic.
> > >> >
> > >> > I do not need to be a delegate to Kazan for the Spanish Pirate Party
> > to
> > >> > have inalienable rights. I have these on my own as a human being,
> and
> > >> > as
> > >> an
> > >> > equal among pirates.
> > >> >
> > >> > By their own Rules of Procedure, provisional as they might be but
> > >> > deemed
> > >> > temporarily enforceable unless a General Assembly ruled otherwise
> > >> (which,
> > >> > thanks to the terrible efficiency of General Assemblies has not
> > >> > happened
> > >> > yet :) )... anonymous complaints are acceptable in matters regarding
> > >> > infringement of PPI Statutes.
> > >> >
> > >> > What happened at the PPI GA in Prague and showed up in several CoA
> > >> rulings
> > >> > qualifies largely as such.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > So, no matter how cleverly you or anybody else thought he was
> > >> scheming...
> > >> > you are fucked assholes.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > And PPI and PPI Board are walking on eggs in this...
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Antonio.
> > >> >
> > >> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:02:23 +0200
> > >> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
> > >> > Conference Kazan 2013
> > >> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
> > >> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com;
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> > All your logic goes linked to your personal wishes, not to rules or
> > >> > statutes.
> > >> > Current PPI statutes don't accept personal/annonymous complaints, so
> > >> stop
> > >> > crying and at least get recognized as the official delegate of your
> > >> party
> > >> > before complaining/crying/begging any longer.
> > >> > So far, for what I know, your fellow party members don't want you to
> > >> > represent them at all.
> > >> > Go fix that or shout up :)
> > >> > Be really logic, my friend. Don't just say you are .
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Salut!
> > >> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> escribió:
> > >> > You have a weird sense of logic and ethic, my "friend".
> > >> >
> > >> > I do not need to propose anything. This is pending matter since it
> > was
> > >> > duly introduced as an anonymous complaint to the Court of
> > Arbitration.
> > >> >
> > >> > And it gets absolute priority at the PPI General Assembly because
> the
> > >> > GA
> > >> > is the supreme body of appeal when the CoA fails to deliver, and
> > >> > because
> > >> > its outcome impacts on voting rights at the same General Assembly.
> > >> >
> > >> > Vote outcomes could be different if the vote of the Catalan Pirate
> > >> > Party
> > >> > are deemed valid... so solving this issue comes first.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > And not doing it in such a way raises that many LOGICAL and ETHICAL
> > >> > questions within PPI...
> > >> >
> > >> > ... that a FORK to the whole movement that provides a safe harbour
> > for
> > >> > logically and ethically consistent Pirates... is not to e ruled out
> > if
> > >> PPI
> > >> > utterly fails in this.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Either way... you are done.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Antonio.
> > >> >
> > >> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:18:47 +0200
> > >> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
> > >> > Conference Kazan 2013
> > >> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
> > >> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com;
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> > To propose anything... You need to do it through your officiap
> > >> > representatives.
> > >> > The members of PPI are its parties, not its party members, and so
> far
> > >> you
> > >> > haven't been appointed as PP-ES delegate.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Salut!
> > >> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> escribió:
> > >> > It's a bit late to try to get a quorum lowering participation costs
> > for
> > >> > remotely represented members to zero or almost zero.
> > >> >
> > >> > Holding the GA in Kazan has been a strategical move only to benefit
> > >> > Gregory's position since the very beginning of it.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, PP of Russia is not even registered yet.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, there was such an interest in organizing this in Russia...
> > >> that
> > >> > there were two concurrent bids from there.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, the meetings where the outcome of the selection process
> was
> > >> > crafted... were densely populated with participants.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, there is maybe still another meeting scheduled for Kiev...
> > >> > theoretically stealth approved through "administrative silence"...
> > from
> > >> > Gregory?
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, the russian bids were so consistent... the venue for Kazan
> > is
> > >> > not the originally offered venue anymore.
> > >> >
> > >> > Remember, the Kazan offer is headed towards being the most expensive
> > in
> > >> > the history of the pirate movement... only affordable for local
> > >> > russians
> > >> > and the international pirate dandies with unlimited travel budgets.
> > >> >
> > >> > And certainly, it will be a place where Gregory will easily find
> > straw
> > >> men
> > >> > to hold his many delegation representations. How many this time,
> > >> Gregory?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Surely, he aims for reelection, and he is bureaucratically working
> > with
> > >> > his elbows towards it to the best of his abilities... and 150.000
> > >> > rubles
> > >> of
> > >> > personal subsidies.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I am tired of all the bulshit stacked into the Pirate Movement in
> > such
> > >> > a
> > >> > short timeframe because of the lack of genuine leadership and vision
> > in
> > >> the
> > >> > Pirate Swarm.
> > >> >
> > >> > It has become an IDIOCRACY some demagogues know far too well how to
> > >> > navigate with populism and mob rule.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If Kazan does not put an end to the endless horrors against logic
> and
> > >> > ethic imposed onto the Pirate Movement in Prague (I witnessed that
> in
> > >> utter
> > >> > awe, do not know if it was more or less than in previous GAs)...
> then
> > >> the
> > >> > Pirate Movement is a walking Zombie.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > One single and simple test to begin with:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1) The bogus admission of the Catalan Pirate Party as a full member
> > of
> > >> the
> > >> > PPI after a mere propaganda session, a blackmail to the Assembly,
> and
> > >> mob
> > >> > rule to impose a vote on a matter not being an ad-hoc competence of
> > the
> > >> > General Assembly, instrumentalizing a non-motion of the Australian
> > >> Pirate
> > >> > Party... and ignoring it did not even reach the required two-thirds
> > >> > majority.
> > >> >
> > >> > The Statutes of PPI were blatantly ignored first, and consciously
> > >> violated
> > >> > in a sentence of the Court of Arbitration that will certainly be
> > >> > awarded
> > >> > the Nobel Prize for utter stupidity as soon as it is created.
> > >> >
> > >> > I presented a very argumented and of unavoidable consequences
> > complaint
> > >> to
> > >> > the Court of Arbitration... anonymously, as I could not get the
> > backing
> > >> of
> > >> > a spineless Board of the Spanish Pirate Party,... carefully
> following
> > >> the
> > >> > published guidelines of the Rules of Procedure of the Court of
> > >> > Arbitration,... that had decided -without a hint of disapproval
> > >> anywhere-
> > >> > that it would accept anonymous complaints of anybody in case of
> > >> > infringement to the PPI Statutes.
> > >> >
> > >> > There was only one way to stop the complaint of achieving its
> goal...
> > >> > render the CoA absolutely inoperative so that it could not resolve
> > into
> > >> a
> > >> > result it could not tamper with.
> > >> >
> > >> > PP-CH threatened to SUE the PPI in court in such a clumsy way it
> > >> > offered
> > >> > Gregory an dreamed excuse to impose the resignation of the Court of
> > >> > Arbitration as a Salomonic (rather satanic) "solution" the Swiss
> > could
> > >> be
> > >> > happy with or show muscle... and they folded.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > As the voting rights of a bogus member are being contested... either
> > we
> > >> > solve this adequately on-line BEFORE the assembly (and then maybe
> > more
> > >> > members seeing some hope is still a push to get the needed remote
> > >> > participants on board)... or you will be fighting it out during the
> > two
> > >> > days, unable to tackle anything else (what a waste of money and time
> > >> > for
> > >> > all those present in Kazan), and sign the demise of a pirate
> movement
> > >> > already lacking credibility for any intelligent being.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Antonio García.
> > >> > (by some kind of weird disfunctional wonder... official member of
> the
> > >> > Board of the Spanish Pirate Party... while it lasts :( ).
> > >> >
> > >> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 03:02:40 +0200
> > >> > From: jelena.the.one at gmail.com
> > >> > To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
> Conference
> > >> > Kazan 2013
> > >> >
> > >> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas
> on
> > >> this
> > >> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are
> > good.
> > >> >
> > >> > that's what I am doing, that's community management, not campaign
> and
> > >> > advertising :) thanx for having time to reply
> > >> > I really believe conference fees should be none for remote
> > >> > participants,
> > >> > since Kazan is that far and that expensive. Excuse e Gregory, but
> > fees
> > >> are
> > >> > 3 do 4 times higher then in Prague.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Simon Frew
> > >> <simon.frew at pirateparty.org.au>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >>Jelena said:
> > >> >
> > >> >>It was not a junket. it was good opportunity for networking. And
> > there
> > >> > is less trolling and hate speech when you meet someone face 2 face.
> > >> >
> > >> > That's
> > >> > good if you can afford it, none of our members seem to have the
> > spare
> > >> > funds to travel to Russia for a two day meeting, and we can't afford
> > >> > to
> > >> > fund them out of our limited budget.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >>I think conference few should be much lower for remote participants.
> > Or
> > >> >>it should be no fee at all.
> > >> >
> > >> > Those
> > >> > of us attending as remote delegates cannot register to attend.
> > >> > Leaving
> > >> > us to wonder, will there even be remote delegates this year? Will it
> > >> > be
> > >> > any better than previous years?
> > >> >
> > >> > I think I speak for many non-European
> > >> > parties when I say we are looking for reassurance and evidence that
> > we
> > >> > wont get screwed over and left out yet again. If this years GA is as
> > >> > farcical as the last two, the organisation will start to crumble.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >>PPI has no budget, and I as a board member didn't use any
> > >> > money so far. Even for runnign FB campaign resources (maybe) could
> be
> >
> > >> > given from PP DE.
> > >> >>When I realized it I gave up making a project proposal
> > >> > and going trough bureaucracy for little campaign
> > >> >>(managing FB ads from
> > >> > Serbia is cheaper than in other countries, ofc talking about price
> > per
> > >> > click / per 1000 views)
> > >> >
> > >> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas
> on
> > >> this
> > >> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are
> > good.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >>PPI board members, as far as I know, will go to
> > >> > Kazan from their own money too. PPI has no budget even to send board
> > >> > to
> > >> > PPI conference.
> > >> >>And I agree it is not cheap even when you are flying
> > >> > from Europe, I calculated costs of flight ticket and hotel and it
> was
> >
> > >> > cca 1.000 eur (~ 1.200 AU dollars), from the Balkans.
> > >> >
> > >> > Surely
> > >> > remote participation would be more important than ever, yet despite
> > >> > repeated efforts through multiple channels we cannot get a response
> > >> > reassuring people who can't attend in person that they will be able
> > to
> > >> > participate and that remote delegates will be taken seriously.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > What does the Board want the money for? How much does it want?
> > >> >
> > >> > We are reluctant
> > >> > to give money
> > >> > to an organisation that we feel effectively excluded from, with no
> > >> > idea
> > >> > what it will do. The trust we have in the PPI, if you can't tell is
> > >> > basically non-existant at the moment. The Co-Chair publicly
> attacking
> > >> > us
> > >> > for not wanting to spend thousands of dollars to go to Russia
> > doesn't
> > >> > exactly give us confidence any money that goes to PPI will be used
> > >> > wisely.
> > >> >
> > >> > Mab wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >>The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform
> > for
> > >> > our general assemblies. Over the years we have developed
> > >> >>quite a few
> > >> > fetures to make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are
> > >> > entirely
> > >> > text based and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that
> > >> >>people can attend
> > >> > regardless of when they have the time to be online. Any single round
> > >> > of
> > >> > voting spans at least 24 hours to facilitate
> > >> >>that everyone can vote.
> > >> >
> > >> > This sounds like the exact sort of thing that is needed for PPI.
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Simon
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:18 AM, <mattias.bjarnemalm at piratpartiet.se
> >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform
> > for
> > >> our
> > >> > general assemblies. Over the years we have developed quite a few
> > >> > fetures
> > >> to
> > >> > make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are entirely text
> > >> > based
> > >> > and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that people can attend regardless of
> > when
> > >> > they have the time to be online. Any single round of voting spans at
> > >> least
> > >> > 24 hours to facilitate that everyone can vote.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I am pretty sure a similar model would work for PPI, which, given
> its
> > >> > delegate system, would have far less participants.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If ppi where interested I am sure we could provide the technical
> > >> know-how
> > >> > of how to set up a web forum.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > All the best
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Mab
> > >> >
> > >> > PP-SE
> > >> >
> > >> > EU-branch
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On 2013-04-02 10:41, Simon Frew wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > We just use cheap video streaming with an IRC channel where we
> verify
> > >> >
> > >> > who can vote and give them voice. Everyone with a computer monitors
> > >> >
> > >> > IRC so remote delegates get adequately represented. I think it costs
> > >> >
> > >> > about $50 for the streaming, but if its entirely online a Mumble
> > >> >
> > >> > server and a Pad would about do it. When we hired all of the gear it
> > >> >
> > >> > cost a total of $150 or so, but we have members who can provide a
> lot
> > >> >
> > >> > of infrastructure out of their own gear.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > It was suggested on #PPI IRC that one could be held on Google+, PP
> > >> >
> > >> > California meet using it (or did when I attended a meeting once) and
> > >> >
> > >> > it worked well. It means dealing with Google and subsequent privacy
> > >> >
> > >> > implications but it has video and is free.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If there wont be any remote participation in the GA we might as well
> > >> >
> > >> > hold our own on Mumble. You guys could even have the honour of
> > hosting
> > >> >
> > >> > the first one. Although PPAU has its own Mumble server too. Just
> > start
> > >> >
> > >> > it later in your day time so I dont have to get up too early to
> > >> >
> > >> > attend. ;)
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Simon
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Aza <rata_0071 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > 2013/4/1 Simon Frew <simon.frew at pirateparty.org.au>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > We run remote participation for every congress in Australia and it
> > >> > costs
> > >> > virtually nothing. See our official complaint letter for how to do
> > it.
> > >> The
> > >> > idea it is expensive is false.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Hey Simon could the PPAU provide the infrastructure for a virtual
> GA?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > At the PPAR we have a mumble server that could be used if you dont
> > miss
> > >> > video.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If we cant participate in the same one we may just as well have a
> > >> parallel
> > >> > virtual GA
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > regards
> > >> >
> > >> > aza
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > President of the Intergalactic Pirate Party (IPP)
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ____________________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > >> >
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> > [1]
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Links:
> > >> >
> > >> > ------
> > >> >
> > >> > [1]
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ____________________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > >> >
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ____________________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > >> >
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ____________________________________________________
> > >> >
> > >> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > >> >
> > >> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > >> >
> > >> >
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
> International - General Talk pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
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