[pp.int.general] 'Liquid Democrazy': Pirate Party Sinks amid Chaos and Bickering

carlo von lynX lynX at pirate.my.buttharp.org
Sun Feb 24 20:06:54 CET 2013

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 07:07:18PM +0100, StreetDogg wrote:
> There is no easy and obvious way. There are probably posibilities to
> "hack" the law, but nobody really knows if it would stand before

you can declare it to be a permanent assembly. then it works.
i think several lands have worked their SMV's out quite nicely.

> courts. Also there are data protection laws that collide with
> security needs.

that is a myth that got stuck in the german pirate party and is
really hard to fix. that's actually pretty scary that something
like that can happen as it convinced an entire party that the only
thing that could get them going can't be done.

they asked some bureacrat if using LF in way xy would be legally
valid and for reasons beyond my understanding they just believe
whatever was said. truth is there had been previous lawyer
consultations which simply affirmed that it is as with any software
on the internet:

if you click on the terms & conditions and declare to accept them,
you declare to accept that your name is visible within the voting
tool. end of story. no data protection problem at all.

italian law makes it even easier. it says that assemblies need to
have a named list of participants. by making LF a permanent assembly
of identified people it is just continously fulfilling its duty of
verbalization. wouldn't be surprised if german association & party
laws have such a requirement, too.

> >"Time and again, a majority of the party's members express support
> >online for a particular idea, only to scrap it at the party's next
> >real-world meeting."
> >
> >Why that happens?  Does that mean that different people vote in LF?
> >People change their minds?
> Only a more or less small subset of the party members use the system
> to express their opinions. Basically the party is divided in fans of

you can scrap liquid feedback rightaway if you use it like that.
your party must collectively decide to either use it and work out
the problems of it or to rot in hell of traditional democracy.

the majority of implementations of LQFB are just plain wrong.

am i talking to a german? 
in that case replace "your party" with "our party"

there is a reason why LQFB in berlin works and fails in several
other bundeslands. stubborness. so hard it rather makes the entire
project fall to pieces.

either the german pirates learn to embrace the future
and to risk the problems of liquid democracy, or they can
try their luck being just yet another political party.

i bet my ass noone in germany cares for yet another party.

so i see no alternative.

all the LF critics should get together and present some really
smart improvements and fixes (like 'pirate feedback' which at
least is an okay alternative) but stop being fundamentalist
against it as it will just tear the pirate movement apart.

 psyc://psyced.org/~lynX - http://my.pages.de - xmpp:lynX at psyced.org
 irc://psyced.org/piraten - https://psyced.org/PSYC/?room=piraten

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