[pp.int.general] 'Liquid Democrazy': Pirate Party Sinks amid Chaos and Bickering
ningunotro at hotmail.com
Sun Feb 24 20:36:03 CET 2013
You are being utterly naive about the characteristics of Liquid Feedback, in a way that gets the naive majority of pirates behind you.
And taking into account the most probable reactions of that naive majority makes it very hard to argue with you rationally.
I would not be in the least surprised to get to know NeuPiraten desperately long for their Liquid Feedback dictatorship... and AltPiraten fight it with the same desperation... for the same reason.
You should get acquainted with mass dynamics... and what they would do with LFB under the present state of affairs.
I know almost all there is to know about the present state of affairs... having to battle it in PP-ES and satellites, PPI (anyone care to remember all the yet unsolved idiocies that happend in Prague?), PP-EU, and elsewhere.
Even PP-SE pragmatism and the discussion about respecting agreements with Richard Stallman have to do with it...
... and what is possible or impossible to achieve under the circumstances the mass interactions among so many present conditions individualities generate.
If it leads to having to give up what we can not trust to arrive at a safe harbor with (for our ideology, ethics, or logic)... sooner rather than later we will end up being unable to do anything serious at all... and satisfy the majorities wish of just play around naively.
IF we are not already there.
> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 20:06:54 +0100
> From: lynX at pirate.my.buttharp.org
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] 'Liquid Democrazy': Pirate Party Sinks amid Chaos and Bickering
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 07:07:18PM +0100, StreetDogg wrote:
> > There is no easy and obvious way. There are probably posibilities to
> > "hack" the law, but nobody really knows if it would stand before
> you can declare it to be a permanent assembly. then it works.
> i think several lands have worked their SMV's out quite nicely.
> > courts. Also there are data protection laws that collide with
> > security needs.
> that is a myth that got stuck in the german pirate party and is
> really hard to fix. that's actually pretty scary that something
> like that can happen as it convinced an entire party that the only
> thing that could get them going can't be done.
> they asked some bureacrat if using LF in way xy would be legally
> valid and for reasons beyond my understanding they just believe
> whatever was said. truth is there had been previous lawyer
> consultations which simply affirmed that it is as with any software
> on the internet:
> if you click on the terms & conditions and declare to accept them,
> you declare to accept that your name is visible within the voting
> tool. end of story. no data protection problem at all.
> italian law makes it even easier. it says that assemblies need to
> have a named list of participants. by making LF a permanent assembly
> of identified people it is just continously fulfilling its duty of
> verbalization. wouldn't be surprised if german association & party
> laws have such a requirement, too.
> > >"Time and again, a majority of the party's members express support
> > >online for a particular idea, only to scrap it at the party's next
> > >real-world meeting."
> > >
> > >Why that happens? Does that mean that different people vote in LF?
> > >People change their minds?
> > Only a more or less small subset of the party members use the system
> > to express their opinions. Basically the party is divided in fans of
> you can scrap liquid feedback rightaway if you use it like that.
> your party must collectively decide to either use it and work out
> the problems of it or to rot in hell of traditional democracy.
> the majority of implementations of LQFB are just plain wrong.
> am i talking to a german?
> in that case replace "your party" with "our party"
> there is a reason why LQFB in berlin works and fails in several
> other bundeslands. stubborness. so hard it rather makes the entire
> project fall to pieces.
> either the german pirates learn to embrace the future
> and to risk the problems of liquid democracy, or they can
> try their luck being just yet another political party.
> i bet my ass noone in germany cares for yet another party.
> so i see no alternative.
> all the LF critics should get together and present some really
> smart improvements and fixes (like 'pirate feedback' which at
> least is an okay alternative) but stop being fundamentalist
> against it as it will just tear the pirate movement apart.
> psyc://psyced.org/~lynX - http://my.pages.de - xmpp:lynX at psyced.org
> irc://psyced.org/piraten - https://psyced.org/PSYC/?room=piraten
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
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