[pp.int.general] Remember remember...

Thu Jul 11 19:09:23 CEST 2013

Perhaps Seykron´s view is from a middle class Argentinian person. But I can
assure you in our Argentine discussion list(where Seykron participates
too), we are all the time trying to understand other points of view.
Specially the aborigine one. That is even more complicated to understood
than the simple poor people, because involves see the world in a quite
different way. It´s not easy, but I can assure you we are making the best
effort to try to understand and think about the needs of all the Argentine
people. Not only having into account different classes but also different
cultures.
We have talk to them, we have help them the ways we know and we are always
trying to comprehend them and other social classes.
I know is not easy, but you can see in that list we are continuously asking
ourselves how we can make them participate when they do not have internet
and how we can help them and for us that are born with internet (or risen
with it) is not an easy task.
Besides that we are trying to see the world through our pirate lenses.
Trying to carry our principles to different situations. We realized for
example the share issue is not only for documents, movies and music, it
involves seeds, patents, share public places and public resources, etc.
That´s when we add all these people into the equation. Perhaps they do not
need to share internet files, but they sure need to have the right to have
an opinion about how the public resources are used. That kind of sharing is
still a pirate way of thinking that goes beyond the computer world.

For me that´s one of the threads that carries us to the treasure that
Seykron is asking. The pirate ability to take our ideals and transform the
way of thinking the world into a world for us all, where sharing is a
cultural good we must protect.
Part of the pirate treasure for me is that. Having the ability to see
beyond the computer world boundaries and doing that contribute to make a
better world for everybody.  Maybe is a utopia, but it worth the effort of
trying and if not changing all the world at least to change something.
Once I read you have to have big goals in life. Because even if you do not
get them, in the way you'll have make a great difference.

Betiel

2013/7/11 Anouk <jakobsheep at gmail.com>

> Hi Matias, I don't think you understood my message. I give it a last try.
>
> The last world war was also a transitional time  :p
>
> In your oversimplified generalisation, you only reason with the introvert
> perspective of a typical middle class western world view.
> You do not take in account the 2/3 of the rest of the world and assume
> what is 'good' for them and everybody else. Have you ever considered asking
> the really poor people what they really need?
>
> This fits the liniair thinking of theorists like Karl Marx, locked in
> their library. meeting only friends that agree amongst themselves, writing
> fiction about the world (and selling for profit?)
>
> So 1 communism only works in a world WITHOUT any nations/different states
> !!! (hence purely theoretical)
> And 2 what is wrong with capitalism ??? (other then examples of unethical
> abuse of this principle, if I kill someone with a hammer, should we then
> ban that same hammer ?!?)
> 3 I could continue but I don't.
>
> I simply advise to do less utopian talk unless it is compared to a real
> world situation.
> That's all, keep up the good spirit,
>
> anouk.
>
>
> On 8 July 2013 23:20, seykron <seykron at partidopirata.com.ar> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for sharing your experience, Anouk, it is very appreciated.
>>
>> Indeed, I wrote these thoughts taking into account we're living in a
>> transitional
>> time between an old-fashioned politics and a new kind of social movement.
>> As
>> usually happens in any transition, there exist a "tradition" trying to
>> save the
>> current order and a new power promoting the breaking of that order. I
>> think this
>> kind of "elastic period" is very confusing because old and new orders are
>> mixing
>> them up to consolidate either the winning of tradition, or the rising of
>> a new
>> paradigm. That's because being a pirate is quite confusing, and many
>> people
>> immersed in the old paradigm will try to accomplish their own interests
>> applying
>> over the pirate movement the same obsolete recipes.
>>
>> But there are wind of changes (it began some time ago, there is a
>> brilliant
>> paper describing the problem from the economical and political
>> situation[1]), and
>> I cannot ignore the fact that the last two important changes in history
>> were
>> during the first two decades of the century, and the fact that people is
>> able to
>> organize mass protests in a short time period to complain about abuses
>> headed by
>> goverments. I see goverments trying to fix a speech they can hardly
>> maintain, and
>> I see groups like Anonymous publishing documents that are buried by
>> political
>> parties[2].
>>
>> That's because I think a "pirate party" is an accident, and it might not
>> assume
>> the representation for thousand of people over the world which are asking
>> for
>> real changes in social relationships and power distribution. That's
>> because I
>> didn't define what the "treasure" is, it's something in the air. I
>> encourage you
>> to keep working in the same direction and just ignore people that
>> consider you a
>> troll. If you read Descartes or Kant right now, after several centuries,
>> you
>> will note they sound quite childish. The same will happen to those that
>> try to
>> force an old model to fit the new one.
>>
>> There're a lot of work to do, there are people that's trying to survive
>> and we
>> cannot get close to them speaking in terms of "changes", it doesn't work
>> at all.
>> "Change" means nothing for the most people in the world. I don't figure
>> out what
>> is the way, but nobody can deny something very tense is moving through
>> the world.
>> Our reflections will be lost in the ocean of information until someone in
>> the
>> future find it out to understand why "pirate parties failed" or why
>> "goverments
>> spy us" or the best scenario, "how capitalism became obsolete".
>> Comprehensive
>> experience documentation (a.k.a. reflection) is essential to understand
>> the
>> future.
>>
>> Matías
>>
>>
>> [1] Claus Offe, Competitive party democracy and the Keynesian welfare
>> state:
>> Factors of stability and disorganization, 1983. Here's the spanish
>> version:
>> http://bit.ly/14FRoPH
>> [2] http://bit.ly/15rhVCF
>>
>>
>> On 2013-07-08 09:03:02AM, Anouk wrote:
>> > Great piece Matias,
>> >
>> > I have 'analized'  the same, but my conclusion is much more simple. Too
>> big
>> > are the ego's, too much oversimplified and generalized reasoning. And in
>> > the end no real social cohesion (not more then at an average houseparty
>> > until the booze runs out). The moment this 'treasure' involves ethical
>> > dilemmas instead of solving this there is plain denial (very powerfull
>> > ego-tool), walking away from it or infantile dogmas are used.
>> >
>> > Where are the (mental and emotional) grown-up pirates ?
>> >
>> > Fortunately everybody can call me a troll and we can keep on discussing
>> on
>> > a childish level as usual.
>> >
>> > There is a basic difference between being naive or being infantile.
>> This is
>> > the real challenge.
>> > Good luck with your reflections,
>> >
>> > by the way, getting kicked out of 'the group' is my middle name :) I
>> > challenge ALL 'group-thinking' on its errors, dogma and inconsistencies.
>> > And 'the group' NEVER likes this.  Getting rid of the abusive and
>> > manipulative egoists would heal the pirates, not more partying.
>> >
>> > anouk
>> >  On Jul 8, 2013 3:07 AM, "seykron" <seykron at partidopirata.com.ar>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I have been reading this maillist for a while, and I realized
>> there're some
>> > > worries leading to tensions between several groups. I understand this
>> is
>> > > the
>> > > nature of politics, because politics is made of tense relationships
>> with
>> > > each
>> > > group wanting to win "something". To be more specific, in the deep
>> under
>> > > discussions I can see the "identity problem" (sometimes very
>> explicitly).
>> > > It's
>> > > a recurring problem because we're all human beings and we've got a
>> > > knowledge
>> > > base that defines us as subjects. So... here goes my question: is it
>> > > possible
>> > > to build a common identity in terms of politics?
>> > >
>> > > I've not got the answer, but I'd like to share some reflections with
>> you.
>> > > If we
>> > > part from the basic premise that we all have different interests,
>> > > perspectives,
>> > > mindsets, and we accept it's almost impossible to put together these
>> > > elements,
>> > > perhaps we'll reach the heart of the problem. We are usually involved
>> in
>> > > large
>> > > word fights to win rhetorical wars instead of figuring out the
>> dissent and
>> > > trying to find a way out to reach an agreement. At this point, it's
>> > > impossible
>> > > to see the forest for the trees and it implicitly breaks something.
>> But
>> > > that
>> > > "something" that is collapsing is the same thing that has previously
>> > > brought us
>> > > together for a reason, it is our cohesion key. I think the common
>> identity
>> > > is
>> > > very close to that "something", and since we're pirates I'd like to
>> call it
>> > > "treasure".
>> > >
>> > > The question is a challenge now: what's that treasure? Please, don't
>> tell
>> > > me
>> > > that it doesn't belong to reality, it's more real that any proposal or
>> > > thought
>> > > because we're thinking, taking decisions and fighting for that unknown
>> > > treasure. If someone says "I'm not aware of such foolish things, I'm
>> > > trying to
>> > > make something real in Parliament" or "I'm not aware of such foolish
>> > > things,
>> > > I'm trying to make something real in the streets" without any
>> criticism and
>> > > reflection about their own activity, it's signal of imminent loss of
>> the
>> > > way to
>> > > the treasure, whatever it might be. Criticism without action is
>> > > meaningless,
>> > > action without self criticism is selfishness.
>> > >
>> > > What I do know is this treasure is very big and it requires a
>> compromise
>> > > from
>> > > many different positions. I cannot understand all topics, but I trust
>> in
>> > > other
>> > > pirates that understand those topics. That's why I do accept
>> parliamentary
>> > > labour as well as social research, and that's why no matter what the
>> > > ideology of
>> > > the ones working in different topics is, I trust we all are looking
>> for the
>> > > same treasure.
>> > >
>> > > Maybe we'll never define what the treasure is, maybe it's convenient
>> to
>> > > leave
>> > > it undefined, but there're values around it: we already spoke about
>> > > participatory democracy, public transparency, free culture and
>> knowledge
>> > > (in
>> > > terms of freedom), horizontality, respect, responsibility. I also
>> think
>> > > personal
>> > > interests are essential to carry out jobs with passion. If someone
>> likes
>> > > to make
>> > > money or think in alternative labour models is the same to me. An
>> identity
>> > > is
>> > > something that is always changing and it is never completely defined,
>> but
>> > > on the
>> > > other hand it has a very high consistency because of underlying
>> values.
>> > > The key
>> > > question to validate whether someone is working for its own purpose
>> or not
>> > > is
>> > > simple: how does your job brings us closer to the treasure?. No matter
>> > > how, if
>> > > that person is able to answer this simple question without doubts,
>> it's a
>> > > pirate,
>> > > and if not, it's just another piece taken away for the estalishment.
>> > >
>> > > My message is it: get back to the roots, we're all human beings and we
>> > > have very
>> > > difficult relationships. Just accept that and let's drink a beer to
>> laugh
>> > > about
>> > > our limitations. Learn lessons from history and your own errors, and
>> be
>> > > honest
>> > > when your interests no longer fits the pirate way. Be scared of you,
>> and
>> > > scared
>> > > of each other, everyone and nobody's looking at you. Your errors will
>> be
>> > > saw by
>> > > thousand of people wanting to propose another way to do the same
>> you're
>> > > doing,
>> > > if you cannot accept your mistake and let others help you, someone
>> else
>> > > will make
>> > > it right and you will not longer be reliable: nobody and everyone will
>> > > kick you
>> > > out.-
>> > >
>> > > Matías
>> > >
>> > > ____________________________________________________
>> > > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________
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