[pp.int.general] Remember remember...
betielix at gmail.com
Thu Jul 11 23:15:46 CEST 2013
2013/7/11 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> Quoted from one of Seykron's previous messages:
> "I don't figure out what is the way, but nobody can deny something
> very tense is moving through the world. Our reflections will be lost
> in the ocean of information until someone in the future find it out
> to understand why "pirate parties failed" or why "goverments spy us"
> or the best scenario, "how capitalism became obsolete".
> Comprehensive experience documentation (a.k.a. reflection) is
> essential to understand the future."
> Why does it have to be someone in the future?
> Imagine someone were able to find out these things TODAY, even
> yesterday :( . How would the world, or even only the pirate
> movement... handle such knowledge?
really good question. I do not have an answer for it. Just hope we do our
best and be able to get the most of any good idea we find in our way.
> > Perhaps Seykron´s view is from a middle class Argentinian person.
> > But I can assure you in our Argentine discussion list(where Seykron
> > participates too), we are all the time trying to understand other
> > points of view. Specially the aborigine one. That is even more
> > complicated to understood than the simple poor people, because
> > involves see the world in a quite different way. It´s not easy, but
> > I can assure you we are making the best effort to try to understand
> > and think about the needs of all the Argentine people. Not only
> > having into account different classes but also different cultures.
> The difference between aboriginal points of view and more western
> ones lies in the fact that they have not yet fallen in the trap of
> applying advanced mathematics to the question of survival. The sort
> of... only when you control 1/2 of Earth's resources can you be
> relatively sure nobody (not even the 99% of them together) gets to
> control more than you and have a chance to assure their survival
> threatening yours. Please, imagine the enormeous implications of
> such an otherwise simple (as in accessible early in humanities
> timespan) logic.
> It is not the aboriginal logic you need to understand, but rather
> your own as practised by the "learned" elites rather than the plain
> peoples, and the consequences of it's mere existence upon all the
> rest of humanity.
But trying to understand the diverse aborigen logic (we have several
different aborigen cultures here in Argentina) is important too.
Because helps us understand what they ask, what they need and how to search
for solutions that will be in benefit for us all.
Obviously is important too understand the logic of the people that have the
actual control of the world or sections of the world too.
> > We have talk to them, we have help them the ways we know and we are
> > always trying to comprehend them and other social classes. I know is
> > not easy, but you can see in that list we are continuously asking
> > ourselves how we can make them participate when they do not have
> > internet and how we can help them and for us that are born with
> > internet (or risen with it) is not an easy task.
> They can not be helped in any way other than us getting rid of the
> prisoners dilemma in our survival logic.
> What??? What has to do the prisoners dilemma with helping people??
> > Besides that we are trying to see the world through our pirate
> > lenses. Trying to carry our principles to different situations.
> Please, revisit your "pirate lenses". Read what Rick Falkvinge,
> founder of the Pirate Movement, writes about it in what he has
> already published online of his forthcoming book "The Swarm". He
> ain't got everything right... but your understanding of pirate
> values, as much as it may be your logical understanding of these, is
> miles away of what he has ever thought about it.
I really do not see the contradiction. All I`ve read carries for me the
Are you sure you are understanding me?
Perhaps he, if is reading this email should tell me why my pirate lenses
are so far away.
Until that moment, and considering I agree with almost all is said in that
book, I really do not see the necesity to revisit my pirate lenses.
> > We realized for example the share issue is not only for documents,
> > movies and music, it involves seeds, patents, share public places
> > and public resources, etc. That´s when we add all these people into
> > the equation. Perhaps they do not need to share internet files, but
> > they sure need to have the right to have an opinion about how the
> > public resources are used. That kind of sharing is still a pirate
> > way of thinking that goes beyond the computer world.
> The problem is not SHARING, or the lack of it... the problem is
> ACCUMULATION, when the goal of MORE THAN ONE ENTITY is to reach
> safety through accumulating at least half of everything.
when I say the share issue, I was meaning the lack of free sharing.
> > For me that´s one of the threads that carries us to the treasure
> > that Seykron is asking. The pirate ability to take our ideals and
> > transform the way of thinking the world into a world for us all,
> > where sharing is a cultural good we must protect.
> When NOT EVEN ONE tries to accumulate at least half of all...
> because he thinks his survival depends on it mathematically... (Five
> Eyes anyone?)... then Sharing will be Caring, and we will have
> solved peak oil, peak water, and peak X.
Like the idea of using the word caring!!
I`ll start using it more often and trying to add it on the argentine pp
news, comments, etc..
Perhaps something like having a "sharing is caring" slogan. I really like
> What pirate ability are you talking about? Humanism is still not in
> the center of the Pirate Wheel. In fact, it cost me some effort to
> get it on the wheel at all.
I really do not know exactly all the other pirates parties thinking, but we
added the human rights into our principles. We though it was important.
Not sure what else humanism involves to you.
> > Part of the pirate treasure for me is that. Having the ability to
> > see beyond the computer world boundaries and doing that contribute
> > to make a better world for everybody. Maybe is a utopia, but it
> > worth the effort of trying and if not changing all the world at
> > least to change something. Once I read you have to have big goals in
> > life. Because even if you do not get them, in the way you'll have
> > make a great difference.
> Maybe you should try to see beyond the boundaries of the fatal mass
> dynamics of naieve and ignorant horizontal assembly movements. You
> have quite some experience with the downfall of such movements in
Do you not believe in horizontal movements?
I do believe in them. I do not think all horizontal ways of working are
excellent just because they are horizontal.
For example I do not like much the liquid one, and reading several examples
on this list where it didn´t work, made me liking it even less.
I believe we must find what kind of horizontal movements works and beging
building from there.
Right now, the method we are using in Argentina is working great. Not sure
what will happen when we grow up. But we are continuously thinking what
things could go wrong and try to avoid them.
We have hope the way we are doing things will work.
I invite you to read our carta orgánica. I really recomend the reading of
it. It shows the way we think we can achieve horizontality.
I do not have the link right here.. but in www.partidopirata.com.ar should
be a link to it. If you do not find it, ask me and later I`ll send it to
(Note for other pirates: It still needs adding some little things. That`s
why there isn`t an English translation yet.)
> There is NO democratic way out of an IDIOCRACY. Do not become one.
We are trying to use the horizontallity to hear and understand all the
voices, try to obtain consensus and build from there whenever we can.
Voting is the last thing we do. Perhaps is slow, but it teaches us all
before we decide, and that, I hope will obliterate Idiocracy or at least
It maybe slow in some cases, but we find a way to accelerate simple
decisions so I believe that could make us not stay paralized waiting for
concensus on simple decisions.
> > Betiel
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
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