[pp.int.general] Basic income - how does that fit into the pirate ideology?

illunatic at greenpirate.org illunatic at greenpirate.org
Tue Jul 16 20:38:56 CEST 2013

Thank you for sharing, Charly Pache. This puts things into realistic context.

tl;dr - The annual cost to unconditionally provide each person of  
Switzerland's 7,912 million population with ?2.500 per month is  
?237.360.000.000. That's a lot of billions. Where does this money come  

Here is an opponent of basic income in Switzerland making his case against it.

He makes one point which seems to me that it could be a realistic  
expectation. If current social programs are replaced by basic income,  
people currently receiving benefits would end up receiving less so  
that people who don't necessarily need these benefits can get their  
share. This is his only point that is fairly straightforward. The  
following are based on speculation about how people could react. I  
would add to this the question of whether the funds available to these  
social programs offer enough to cover the cost of unconditional basic  
income for so many people.

As for his other points, I'm not so quick to agree. Would basic income  
cause employers to lower wages because they know their employees are  
supplemented by basic income? This could go either way. On one hand,  
employers know that employees still need to work because basic income  
would only cover half to little more than half of their cost of  
living. Employers know that people still need to work and they know  
people are supplemented by basic income so the employer may determine  
that they can pay people less and it would still be reasonable to  
expect that employees are making enough to meet their cost of living.

I don't know that this would happen because employers may need to  
offer competitive wages to attract employees that are now under less  
pressure to cover their living expenses. However, many businesses may  
not be able to afford higher wages. In this case, these businesses  
would suffer from not being able to offer competitive wages to attract  
employees. It's difficult to see how there would be any dramatic  
change in wages.

He says equality in the work place is threatened because women who  
earn less wages than men who make the same amount would be more likely  
to settle for basic income instead. He already made it clear that  
these women could not rely entirely on basic income so I don't  
understand where this concern is coming from.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see this debate continue in  
Switzerland and maybe we will even get to see how they experiment with  
it, what models they use, what the results are.

My question is still "Where does this money come from?" You can't  
realistically have a government just write checks to one hundred  
percent of its citizen without and income source. The income source  
can't realistically be the citizens either because then it is the same  
as moving money from the left pocket to the right pocket. Oil is a  
terrible funding source from an ethical stand point, but it is also  
the only realistic funding source I have seen presented as an example  
so far.

?19.780.000.000 is the monthly cost for a population of 7,912 million  
people to unconditionally receive ?2.500 basic income. This is an  
annual cost of ?237.360.000.000. Where does this come from?

I would love to have free money rain down on everybody, but without an  
answer to this question, all other discussion of the matter is  
pointless. Somebody solve this problem and you can be sure to find  
overwhelming support. People are likely to support it without a  
solution by being motivated by personal greed. Many people presume to  
rely on their government think something like this through and would  
not hesitate to vote for free money in the mail.

Please understand, I am from a country that does not clearly consider  
their position on matter that don't offer them personal benefits, such  
as the issue of gay marriage. People are staunch opponents of gay  
marriage even if it does not affect their lives in any way. Offer them  
a check in the mail and I am certain they would vote for whichever  
side is signing the check. I do not have faith that reason will  
overcome the greed of the voting public and therefore, it is up to you  
all who would propose such a model to take the responsibility to  
consider the implications of what you are doing.

Quoting Charly Pache <charly.pache at gmail.com>:

> Here the swiss example on what will be added to the constitution if the
> citizen approve the basic income votation, it's quite simple, then the
> parliament will have to write the corresponding laws (the whole transition
> process will take many years):
> The Constitution is amended as follows:
> Art. 110a (new) unconditional basic income
>      1. The Confederation shall ensure the establishment of an unconditional
> basic income.
>      2. The basic income should allow all people to lead a dignified life and
> to participate in public life.
>      3. The law regulates such funding and the amount of basic income.
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Daniel Riaño <danielrr2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Which Pirate parties included the idea of a "basic income" in the core of
>> its ideology and/or their electoral program? And which specific model of
>> "basic income" was that?
>> To be able to talk about this subject meaningfully I think we should
>> describe which model of basic income each has in mind.
>> Of course we can speak in pure philosophical terms without the need to
>> refer to any specific model, but then we should start by defining the
>> anthropological basis of "basic income".
>> best,
>> Daniel
>> 2013/7/16 Zbigniew ?ukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com>
>>> Most of the voices here were in favour of Basic Income.  The general
>>> public is probably much more reserved about it.
>>> We are a group selected for our attitude towards copyright, patents
>>> and privacy reforms - now we see that we share more than that.  Why is
>>> that?  What is the thing that links these subjects?
>>> Z.
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> --
> societal activist @ utilopia.com, pirate party switzerland, ch-open.ch,
> swiss entrepreneurship association and bien-ch.ch

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