[pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some thoughts for the mailing list

Sat Jun 15 21:50:18 CEST 2013

True; I forgot about that possible shortcoming with my theory.

-pat

Quoting Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>:

> I checked, the list published his reply too :( . Should not have  
> been if he had cancelled subscription.
>
> Of course, he can have unsubscribed as he told, and then sign on  
> again just to answer.
>
> Or he may have lied.
>
>
> Antonio.
>
>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:29:05 +0200
>> From: pirate at valio.ch
>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net; ningunotro at hotmail.com
>> CC: kenneth at pirata.cat; pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some  
>> thoughts for the mailing list
>>
>> Not necessarily.
>> In your previous mail you included him in the CC; he's still there in
>> my mail here as well.
>>
>> -pat
>>
>> Quoting Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>:
>>
>> > He must have signed on again just to tell you all...
>> >
>> > Must be pathologic, lol.
>> >
>> >
>> > Antonio.
>> >
>> >
>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:59:55 +0200
>> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some
>> > thoughts for the mailing list
>> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
>> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com; pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >
>> > Can somebody please ban this mentall ill liar?????
>> >
>> > Salut!
>> > Kenneth
>> >
>> >
>> > -------- Missatge original --------
>> > De: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>> > Data: 15/06/2013  19:14  (GMT+01:00)
>> > A: Kenneth Peiruza <kenneth at pirata.cat>,Pirate Parties International
>> > -- General Talk <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> > Assumpte: RE: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some
>> > thoughts for the mailing list
>> >
>> >
>> > Mr. Peiruza has a very developed habit of discrediting whatever does
>> > not conform to his own personal beliefs.
>> >
>> > Of course, this is bullshit! Only when he does it himself he does
>> > seem to have a blind eye and be very tolerating. One not so nice and
>> > superb example is this one: http://iPir.at/catalunya . Certainly
>> > worth the Nobel Price of insult and slander.
>> >
>> > He must also be the only person to have blackmailed a PPI GA, in
>> > Prague, where he threatened to derail it at a moment when it could
>> > have had a terrible impact on the press coverage of the German
>> > Pirate Party just before two crucial regional elections.
>> >
>> > Sadly, the whole pirate movement is in such a bad shape that instead
>> > of not achieving his goals, he got rewarded by the kids in the
>> > movement and certain bastard interests... and everything legal and
>> > illegal was done to keep the issue off the agenda in Kazan. Well,
>> > you all know hat you have to live with, and whether it is bearable.
>> >
>> > In the document http://iPir.at/catalunya Mr. Peiruza tries to paint
>> > the Spanish Pirate Party black because it did and does not conform
>> > to his present beliefs...
>> >
>> > ... but what he does not tell is that he became a member of the
>> > Spanish Pirate Party knowing what it stood for and who its members
>> > were, and that he broke away of it keeping the brand to follow his
>> > own agenda with a few other fellow Catalans.
>> >
>> > The Spanish Pirate party started as a clean copy of the Swedish one,
>> > with a focus on issues that were dealt with at the national and
>> > international level. No provisions for participation in regional nor
>> > local elections existed thus in its Statutes, and Mr. Peiruza and
>> > other Catalans were bound to know this when they joined the party
>> > voluntarily.
>> >
>> > One particularity of the Statutes of the Spanish Pirate Party was
>> > that, the people founding the party had probably had some bad
>> > experiences in the past, and had been a bit paranoid as to the
>> > protection of the basic identity and goals of the party... such that
>> > they protected that part of the Statutes stipulating that they could
>> > only be changed with a majority vote expressed by at least 90% of
>> > the membership of the party.
>> >
>> > I was not there, I can say nothing about the assertion by Mr.
>> > Peiruza that many of the original founders and initial membership of
>> > the Spanish Pirate Party were rightwingers... he himself seems to be
>> > quite lefty and a good friend of Catalan separatists... so I can
>> > imagine why he might like to exagerate certain tendencies to suit
>> > his needs. In any case... I can imagine that he would never have
>> > found enough backing to have the Statutes changed so as to cater for
>> > his and others particular interests regarding the region of Catalunya.
>> >
>> > Fact is thus... that a Spanish Pirate Party existed covering the
>> > whole of Spain, and catering for issues that could only be addressed
>> > at the national and european level. Its Statutes did not provide
>> > ways to participate in regional and local elections.
>> >
>> > Mr. Peiruza and his Catalan comrades would certainly have had a very
>> > hard time trying to convince the membership scattered over all Spain
>> > to vote a Statutes change to allow for participation in regional and
>> > local elections. To be honest, an added difficulty was the less than
>> > optimal member register combined by the lack of membership fees,
>> > that difficulted the writeoff of people that once adhered but showed
>> > no reactions to efforts to contact them. As long as they were not
>> > written off... they were part of the census of which 90% had to vote
>> > to make important Statutes changes possible. When the Catalans set
>> > their aim at participating in the Catalan regional elections... no
>> > procedure whatsoever respectful of the rights of members could be
>> > found... expedient enough to change the Statutes in time so the
>> > Spanish Pirate Party could have participated in the Catalan regional
>> > elections.
>> >
>> > THAT is the one and only REAL reason why... they decided to skip all
>> > difficulties and abandon everyone that did not cater for their
>> > regional priorities, and forgetting the master lines of the Pirate
>> > Movement, created a split only to be able to be Catalans before
>> > being Pirates, while conveniently continuing to squat the Pirate
>> > brand.
>> >
>> > While he only dares say it when it suits him, he is right when he
>> > says that this Pirate Movement isn't a Swarm anymore. It is indeed
>> > what he says, and he has forgotten to mention the few ultrapragmatic
>> > Überbureaucrats that cater for their own personal agenda.
>> >
>> > The initial guidelines provided by Rick have shown to be way
>> > insufficient to maintain cohesion within the movement. And while he
>> > may have provided sufficient leadership in Sweden, elsewhere the
>> > Pirate Parties have fallen prey to populist interpretations limited
>> > by acute knowledge of facts by the majority of their unskilled and
>> > little realityaware members.
>> >
>> > For a swarm to grow and become stronger... it has to attract more
>> > and more intelligent members... but it has fallen prey to simplism
>> > and simplifications along the road, specially since the 15M /
>> > Indignado / Occupy Movement has popularized the populist and near
>> > communist, dogmatic and mechanical vision of equality among men...
>> > for everyone to be mechanically equal, considering that we do not
>> > know yet how to make everyone as smart as the smartest, we shall
>> > apply an intellectual lobotomy to make everyone as dumb as the
>> > dumbest. The majority of not so smart members decides, and it
>> > decides to ignore anything it does not understand without effort.
>> >
>> > As a result, all but the most aware of Pirate Parties are evolving
>> > unstoppably towards IDIOCRACIES.
>> >
>> > And whenever their delegates come together, we get clownesque shows
>> > like the one seen in Prague and in Kazan/Brussels (I was not around
>> > to rate the previous gatherings).
>> >
>> > Believe what you want, call me what you like, shove another chimney
>> > pipe up my ass ;) ...
>> >
>> > ... only the most imperative of real actions can change that trend,
>> > and I do not see it happening from within the Movement.
>> >
>> >
>> > And rules for mailing lists etc. won't  change a thing... you can
>> > not impose rules, whatever rules, upon those that choose not to
>> > understand why they are necessary...
>> >
>> > ... you will only achieve to burn out whatever people have finally
>> > to deal with their enforcement.
>> >
>> >
>> > The only way is to keep out people that do not understand enough. If
>> > not from the society we want to build... at least from the combat
>> > units we try to build it with.
>> >
>> > Nothing can be organised democratically to fight the situation in
>> > our present society... if it is the majority of ignorants that has
>> > to decide what has to be done.
>> >
>> > We are political parties trying to organize a kindergarten where
>> > everybody can be happy if that happens to be the best possible thing
>> > to be got (hopefully not)... not a kindergarten yet.
>> >
>> >
>> > I guess somebody, somewhere, will have to start getting really
>> > serious about the Pirate stuff...
>> >
>> > ... or registering the brand while it has no content worth
>> > preserving will be a futile game.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Antonio.
>> >
>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:58:57 +0200
>> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
>> > To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some
>> > thoughts for the mailing list
>> >
>> > This is bullshit, moreover when very few people keep on harassing
>> > and insulting anyone not agreeing with them here.
>> > This isn't a swarm, it's a melting pot of activists from parties at
>> > a diferent stage of maturity + a bunch of fools/morons.
>> > So, if this list can't be that swarm, let's start a new and fresh
>> > one (as you suggested in your  swarmwise).
>> > If you want to relly me, add me to cc, as I have just
>> > unsubscribed.It's sad, I've been in this mailing list since 2009,
>> > but right now it's just a piece of shit. This "swarm" is dead.
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> >
>> > Kenneth
>> >
>> >
>> > -------- Missatge original --------
>> > De: "Rick Falkvinge (Piratpartiet)" <rick.falkvinge at piratpartiet.se>
>> > Data: 15/06/2013  14:23  (GMT+01:00)
>> > A: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> > <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> > Assumpte: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some thoughts
>> > for the mailing list
>> >
>> >
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> > Hash: SHA1
>> >
>> > Dear colleagues,
>> >
>> > I read the notice of a formal complaint about this channel. It was not
>> > set up to be a moderated channel, nor is it one. Therefore, a formal
>> > complaint is kind of an oxymoron as there are no formal rules to base
>> > a complaint on.
>> >
>> > After all, rules that cannot reasonably be enforced are not rules you
>> > want to have. You cannot keep somebody from posting to an open list,
>> > and openness is a virtue. The alternative would be moderating posts
>> > and/or participants, and that's not who we are; that's not the swarm
>> > way of collaborating.
>> >
>> >
>> > Instead, I'd like to remind everybody about two important principles:
>> >
>> > - - Attention is reward.
>> > - - If you see something you don't like, contribute with something
>> >   you do like.
>> >
>> >
>> > ATTENTION IS REWARD: If you give somebody attention for a behavior,
>> > you will reinforce that behavior, whether the behavior is something
>> > you want to see more or less of. This means that giving attention to
>> > things you dislike is inherently self-defeating, as they will be
>> > nurtured by your attention.
>> >
>> >
>> > IF YOU SEE SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE, CONTRIBUTE WITH SOMETHING YOU DO
>> > LIKE: This is closely related to the Law of Two Feet. We're a
>> > meritocracy where we're dependent on many people trying many different
>> > things. Leadership with us is not achieved by vote or appointment, but
>> > by taking an initiative and letting others follow that initiative of
>> > their own free will. Disliking an initiative is fine, but criticizing
>> > the initiative from that emotion misses the point - being pioneers, we
>> > must necessarily try many paths, and many of them will be dead ends,
>> > but we don't know that before trying them. The more paths we try, the
>> > more ways of success we'll find. Therefore, the proper response to
>> > seeing somebody walk down a path you don't believe in is to walk down
>> > your own path that you believe more in.
>> >
>> >
>> > (As a final plug, these and many more principles are covered more
>> > in-depth in my book Swarmwise, which covers my leadership experiences
>> > taking the PPSE from nothing into the European Parliament. Five
>> > chapters have been published so far, and you can read them here:
>> >
>> >  
>> http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/14/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-one/
>> >
>> > )
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Rick
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > PS: On the rare occasion, I have seen disrespect against fellow
>> > activists on this mailing list, and I never think that's ok. Whether
>> > to call it out or not is a judgment call on a case-by-case basis, but
>> > that will not be done by the mailing list maintainers in that role.
>> > See the two names as technical administrators of the mailing list
>> > server, and not enforcers of any kind of social rules.
>> >
>> >
>> > - --
>> > Rick Falkvinge
>> > Founder of the first Pirate Party
>> > Piratpartiet SE
>> >
>> > @Falkvinge
>> > +46708303600
>> >
>> > Blog, bio and press photos at http://falkvinge.net/photos-bio/
>> >
>> > My mails are always digitally signed. If you get a mail that isn't, it
>> > was not sent by me.
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
>> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>> >
>> > iEYEARECAAYFAlG8XLUACgkQ7pnTrWI4jx2N6gCgir2luXwVjBJmicL/9LbwM5fo
>> > yB0AoIAsEPMHXT7oizc1rJ7O2zSA9No0
>> > =+ojY
>> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>