[pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some thoughts for the mailing list

Tom Behets behets at gmail.com
Sat Jun 15 21:56:13 CEST 2013 

Is there a public archive of this mailing list?


On 15 Jun 2013, at 21:50, pirate at valio.ch wrote:

> True; I forgot about that possible shortcoming with my theory.
> 
> -pat
> 
> Quoting Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>:
> 
>> I checked, the list published his reply too :( . Should not have been if he had cancelled subscription.
>> 
>> Of course, he can have unsubscribed as he told, and then sign on again just to answer.
>> 
>> Or he may have lied.
>> 
>> 
>> Antonio.
>> 
>>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:29:05 +0200
>>> From: pirate at valio.ch
>>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net; ningunotro at hotmail.com
>>> CC: kenneth at pirata.cat; pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some thoughts for the mailing list
>>> 
>>> Not necessarily.
>>> In your previous mail you included him in the CC; he's still there in
>>> my mail here as well.
>>> 
>>> -pat
>>> 
>>> Quoting Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>:
>>> 
>>> > He must have signed on again just to tell you all...
>>> >
>>> > Must be pathologic, lol.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Antonio.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:59:55 +0200
>>> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some
>>> > thoughts for the mailing list
>>> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
>>> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com; pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> >
>>> > Can somebody please ban this mentall ill liar?????
>>> >
>>> > Salut!
>>> > Kenneth
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -------- Missatge original --------
>>> > De: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>>> > Data: 15/06/2013  19:14  (GMT+01:00)
>>> > A: Kenneth Peiruza <kenneth at pirata.cat>,Pirate Parties International
>>> > -- General Talk <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>>> > Assumpte: RE: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some
>>> > thoughts for the mailing list
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Mr. Peiruza has a very developed habit of discrediting whatever does
>>> > not conform to his own personal beliefs.
>>> >
>>> > Of course, this is bullshit! Only when he does it himself he does
>>> > seem to have a blind eye and be very tolerating. One not so nice and
>>> > superb example is this one: http://iPir.at/catalunya . Certainly
>>> > worth the Nobel Price of insult and slander.
>>> >
>>> > He must also be the only person to have blackmailed a PPI GA, in
>>> > Prague, where he threatened to derail it at a moment when it could
>>> > have had a terrible impact on the press coverage of the German
>>> > Pirate Party just before two crucial regional elections.
>>> >
>>> > Sadly, the whole pirate movement is in such a bad shape that instead
>>> > of not achieving his goals, he got rewarded by the kids in the
>>> > movement and certain bastard interests... and everything legal and
>>> > illegal was done to keep the issue off the agenda in Kazan. Well,
>>> > you all know hat you have to live with, and whether it is bearable.
>>> >
>>> > In the document http://iPir.at/catalunya Mr. Peiruza tries to paint
>>> > the Spanish Pirate Party black because it did and does not conform
>>> > to his present beliefs...
>>> >
>>> > ... but what he does not tell is that he became a member of the
>>> > Spanish Pirate Party knowing what it stood for and who its members
>>> > were, and that he broke away of it keeping the brand to follow his
>>> > own agenda with a few other fellow Catalans.
>>> >
>>> > The Spanish Pirate party started as a clean copy of the Swedish one,
>>> > with a focus on issues that were dealt with at the national and
>>> > international level. No provisions for participation in regional nor
>>> > local elections existed thus in its Statutes, and Mr. Peiruza and
>>> > other Catalans were bound to know this when they joined the party
>>> > voluntarily.
>>> >
>>> > One particularity of the Statutes of the Spanish Pirate Party was
>>> > that, the people founding the party had probably had some bad
>>> > experiences in the past, and had been a bit paranoid as to the
>>> > protection of the basic identity and goals of the party... such that
>>> > they protected that part of the Statutes stipulating that they could
>>> > only be changed with a majority vote expressed by at least 90% of
>>> > the membership of the party.
>>> >
>>> > I was not there, I can say nothing about the assertion by Mr.
>>> > Peiruza that many of the original founders and initial membership of
>>> > the Spanish Pirate Party were rightwingers... he himself seems to be
>>> > quite lefty and a good friend of Catalan separatists... so I can
>>> > imagine why he might like to exagerate certain tendencies to suit
>>> > his needs. In any case... I can imagine that he would never have
>>> > found enough backing to have the Statutes changed so as to cater for
>>> > his and others particular interests regarding the region of Catalunya.
>>> >
>>> > Fact is thus... that a Spanish Pirate Party existed covering the
>>> > whole of Spain, and catering for issues that could only be addressed
>>> > at the national and european level. Its Statutes did not provide
>>> > ways to participate in regional and local elections.
>>> >
>>> > Mr. Peiruza and his Catalan comrades would certainly have had a very
>>> > hard time trying to convince the membership scattered over all Spain
>>> > to vote a Statutes change to allow for participation in regional and
>>> > local elections. To be honest, an added difficulty was the less than
>>> > optimal member register combined by the lack of membership fees,
>>> > that difficulted the writeoff of people that once adhered but showed
>>> > no reactions to efforts to contact them. As long as they were not
>>> > written off... they were part of the census of which 90% had to vote
>>> > to make important Statutes changes possible. When the Catalans set
>>> > their aim at participating in the Catalan regional elections... no
>>> > procedure whatsoever respectful of the rights of members could be
>>> > found... expedient enough to change the Statutes in time so the
>>> > Spanish Pirate Party could have participated in the Catalan regional
>>> > elections.
>>> >
>>> > THAT is the one and only REAL reason why... they decided to skip all
>>> > difficulties and abandon everyone that did not cater for their
>>> > regional priorities, and forgetting the master lines of the Pirate
>>> > Movement, created a split only to be able to be Catalans before
>>> > being Pirates, while conveniently continuing to squat the Pirate
>>> > brand.
>>> >
>>> > While he only dares say it when it suits him, he is right when he
>>> > says that this Pirate Movement isn't a Swarm anymore. It is indeed
>>> > what he says, and he has forgotten to mention the few ultrapragmatic
>>> > Überbureaucrats that cater for their own personal agenda.
>>> >
>>> > The initial guidelines provided by Rick have shown to be way
>>> > insufficient to maintain cohesion within the movement. And while he
>>> > may have provided sufficient leadership in Sweden, elsewhere the
>>> > Pirate Parties have fallen prey to populist interpretations limited
>>> > by acute knowledge of facts by the majority of their unskilled and
>>> > little realityaware members.
>>> >
>>> > For a swarm to grow and become stronger... it has to attract more
>>> > and more intelligent members... but it has fallen prey to simplism
>>> > and simplifications along the road, specially since the 15M /
>>> > Indignado / Occupy Movement has popularized the populist and near
>>> > communist, dogmatic and mechanical vision of equality among men...
>>> > for everyone to be mechanically equal, considering that we do not
>>> > know yet how to make everyone as smart as the smartest, we shall
>>> > apply an intellectual lobotomy to make everyone as dumb as the
>>> > dumbest. The majority of not so smart members decides, and it
>>> > decides to ignore anything it does not understand without effort.
>>> >
>>> > As a result, all but the most aware of Pirate Parties are evolving
>>> > unstoppably towards IDIOCRACIES.
>>> >
>>> > And whenever their delegates come together, we get clownesque shows
>>> > like the one seen in Prague and in Kazan/Brussels (I was not around
>>> > to rate the previous gatherings).
>>> >
>>> > Believe what you want, call me what you like, shove another chimney
>>> > pipe up my ass ;) ...
>>> >
>>> > ... only the most imperative of real actions can change that trend,
>>> > and I do not see it happening from within the Movement.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > And rules for mailing lists etc. won't  change a thing... you can
>>> > not impose rules, whatever rules, upon those that choose not to
>>> > understand why they are necessary...
>>> >
>>> > ... you will only achieve to burn out whatever people have finally
>>> > to deal with their enforcement.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The only way is to keep out people that do not understand enough. If
>>> > not from the society we want to build... at least from the combat
>>> > units we try to build it with.
>>> >
>>> > Nothing can be organised democratically to fight the situation in
>>> > our present society... if it is the majority of ignorants that has
>>> > to decide what has to be done.
>>> >
>>> > We are political parties trying to organize a kindergarten where
>>> > everybody can be happy if that happens to be the best possible thing
>>> > to be got (hopefully not)... not a kindergarten yet.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I guess somebody, somewhere, will have to start getting really
>>> > serious about the Pirate stuff...
>>> >
>>> > ... or registering the brand while it has no content worth
>>> > preserving will be a futile game.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Antonio.
>>> >
>>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 14:58:57 +0200
>>> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
>>> > To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some
>>> > thoughts for the mailing list
>>> >
>>> > This is bullshit, moreover when very few people keep on harassing
>>> > and insulting anyone not agreeing with them here.
>>> > This isn't a swarm, it's a melting pot of activists from parties at
>>> > a diferent stage of maturity + a bunch of fools/morons.
>>> > So, if this list can't be that swarm, let's start a new and fresh
>>> > one (as you suggested in your  swarmwise).
>>> > If you want to relly me, add me to cc, as I have just
>>> > unsubscribed.It's sad, I've been in this mailing list since 2009,
>>> > but right now it's just a piece of shit. This "swarm" is dead.
>>> > Regards,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Kenneth
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -------- Missatge original --------
>>> > De: "Rick Falkvinge (Piratpartiet)" <rick.falkvinge at piratpartiet.se>
>>> > Data: 15/06/2013  14:23  (GMT+01:00)
>>> > A: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>>> > <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>>> > Assumpte: [pp.int.general] Rättning mittåt, sort of: some thoughts
>>> > for the mailing list
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> > Hash: SHA1
>>> >
>>> > Dear colleagues,
>>> >
>>> > I read the notice of a formal complaint about this channel. It was not
>>> > set up to be a moderated channel, nor is it one. Therefore, a formal
>>> > complaint is kind of an oxymoron as there are no formal rules to base
>>> > a complaint on.
>>> >
>>> > After all, rules that cannot reasonably be enforced are not rules you
>>> > want to have. You cannot keep somebody from posting to an open list,
>>> > and openness is a virtue. The alternative would be moderating posts
>>> > and/or participants, and that's not who we are; that's not the swarm
>>> > way of collaborating.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Instead, I'd like to remind everybody about two important principles:
>>> >
>>> > - - Attention is reward.
>>> > - - If you see something you don't like, contribute with something
>>> >   you do like.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ATTENTION IS REWARD: If you give somebody attention for a behavior,
>>> > you will reinforce that behavior, whether the behavior is something
>>> > you want to see more or less of. This means that giving attention to
>>> > things you dislike is inherently self-defeating, as they will be
>>> > nurtured by your attention.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > IF YOU SEE SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE, CONTRIBUTE WITH SOMETHING YOU DO
>>> > LIKE: This is closely related to the Law of Two Feet. We're a
>>> > meritocracy where we're dependent on many people trying many different
>>> > things. Leadership with us is not achieved by vote or appointment, but
>>> > by taking an initiative and letting others follow that initiative of
>>> > their own free will. Disliking an initiative is fine, but criticizing
>>> > the initiative from that emotion misses the point - being pioneers, we
>>> > must necessarily try many paths, and many of them will be dead ends,
>>> > but we don't know that before trying them. The more paths we try, the
>>> > more ways of success we'll find. Therefore, the proper response to
>>> > seeing somebody walk down a path you don't believe in is to walk down
>>> > your own path that you believe more in.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > (As a final plug, these and many more principles are covered more
>>> > in-depth in my book Swarmwise, which covers my leadership experiences
>>> > taking the PPSE from nothing into the European Parliament. Five
>>> > chapters have been published so far, and you can read them here:
>>> >
>>> > http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/14/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-one/
>>> >
>>> > )
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Rick
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > PS: On the rare occasion, I have seen disrespect against fellow
>>> > activists on this mailing list, and I never think that's ok. Whether
>>> > to call it out or not is a judgment call on a case-by-case basis, but
>>> > that will not be done by the mailing list maintainers in that role.
>>> > See the two names as technical administrators of the mailing list
>>> > server, and not enforcers of any kind of social rules.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > - --
>>> > Rick Falkvinge
>>> > Founder of the first Pirate Party
>>> > Piratpartiet SE
>>> >
>>> > @Falkvinge
>>> > +46708303600
>>> >
>>> > Blog, bio and press photos at http://falkvinge.net/photos-bio/
>>> >
>>> > My mails are always digitally signed. If you get a mail that isn't, it
>>> > was not sent by me.
>>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
>>> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>>> >
>>> > iEYEARECAAYFAlG8XLUACgkQ7pnTrWI4jx2N6gCgir2luXwVjBJmicL/9LbwM5fo
>>> > yB0AoIAsEPMHXT7oizc1rJ7O2zSA9No0
>>> > =+ojY
>>> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>> > ____________________________________________________
>>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>> >
>>> > ____________________________________________________
>>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

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