[pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list

Sun Jun 16 08:35:50 CEST 2013

I can see the dangers of censorship and it is probably impossible to
objectively draw the line where starts unacceptable behaviour - but if
we all agree that someone is abusing this list - then there should be
something that we could do to limit that behaviour.

As to Antonio and his obsession of kindergarten - I am tired with this
as well.  It now looks like this was his private mailing list as he
overwhelms everyone with the amount of emails he sends. Maybe we could
ask him to limit his emails to this list to maybe once a week?

Cheers,
Zbigniew

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Tom Behets <behets at gmail.com> wrote:
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942558_682975458385445_1334929336_n.jpg
>
>
> On 16 Jun 2013, at 00:47, Muriel Rovira Esteva <muriel at pirata.cat> wrote:
>
> Dear Anouk,
>
> This list is for pirates. It's not the outer world nor the corridors of a
> Parliament. It should be a friendly environment. This is our discussion
> space, where we should be welcoming, motivating and encouraging newly
> arrived pirates. Shy and intimidated people may have very good ideas or
> insights that the whole movement can benefit from.
>
> We do not need every single pirate helping us to change society or working
> for our cause to be at the front line shouting and speaking out loud,
> fighting within a harsh environment of old school politicians. Everyone has
> its place. Successful teamwork means that every individual should be
> fulfilling different and complementary tasks.
>
> If we select only one kind of personality traits, and we only encourage a
> kind of person to get in our team (call it enduring or whatever), we're very
> likely to loose a great deal of our potential and the insights that you get
> when you talk to people that are very different from you... I don't know,
> perhaps they would be able to tell, for instance, why is the movement not as
> successful sometimes as you would like it to be.
>
> Additionally, I do not see as our duty (nor understand this obsession) with
> toughening up people who may temptatively come here to see what the pirates
> are about, and which may be willing to volunteer part of their time to the
> project, if the thing is appealing enough to them. Last time I checked this
> wasn't the mailing list of a military camp.
>
> I also think that we're plural (good thing!), and understand that some very
> valuable people with good ideas will not know how to express their thoughts
> in a different way (call it soft or respectful). And because I don't want to
> miss their insights either, that is why I think an unmoderated list should
> be mantained as well.
>
> Why should we limit ourselves to one way or the other? Don't you think that
> the more ways we have to communicate the better?
>
> Why do some care so much that other people talk among themselves with a set
> of rules, if they please to do so? Isn't forcing this no-rules rule on them
> a way of limiting their expression?
>
> Best regards,
>
>              Muriel
>
>
>
> 2013/6/15 Anouk <jakobsheep at gmail.com>
>>
>> Hi Muriel and others,
>> I like to point out that /anyone/ feeling intimidated should/must speak
>> out loud.  For how do we know that this is happening ?
>>
>> Secondly, how does one survive at the real political scene ? If we can't
>> deal with straigth forward problems as Antonio has argumented, what chance
>> do the pirates have in public functions ?
>> I still see his arguments on the table not being handled well.
>> Kindergarten is unfortunately an good metaphore, and I like to add, without
>> supervision. (although I like to point out that I also do see progress).
>> Unfortunately sometimes things have to go worse before things improve. (It
>> is called, everybody has to reinvent that same wheel)
>> This is my opinion and I do not experience the discussions as intolerable,
>> au contraire. I get more and more  insights in the persons that shout and
>> curse. This is how they profile themselves, then that is how they are. The
>> truth (with humans) is more often ugly then beautiful, unfortunately. Deal
>> with it rather then keeping it at a distance.
>>
>> Anouk
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2013 11:03 PM, "Muriel Rovira Esteva" <muriel at pirata.cat>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I fail to see how leaving this list as it is, and open a new one for
>>> people who likes to discuss differently is censoring anyone in any way.  :)
>>>
>>> In any case, it would be all the contrary, it would give the oportunity
>>> to all those who may feel a bit intimidated here to say something to speak
>>> their mind and participate.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>               Muriel
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/6/15 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> It would help A TON... not to get away unpunished with blackmail and
>>>> breaches of the Statutes...
>>>>
>>>> ... it is very difficult to feel respectful sympathy for crooks that
>>>> fuck the rules.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Funny, this will be the second time you want things done right... AFTER
>>>> consolidating benefits gathered doing things wrong.
>>>>
>>>> You can not ask for moderation against protest for things done wrong...
>>>> to protect the consolidation of the benefits of your wrongdoing.
>>>>
>>>> That is nothing short of DICTATORIAL CENSORSHIP.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can have it, if the majority wishes it... but then the majority
>>>> should grab for a mirror and see if it still recognizes a Pirate in the
>>>> image.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Antonio.
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: muriel at pirata.cat
>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:25:41 +0200
>>>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>> Subject: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I think is good that we keep this list unmoderated, for those who enjoy
>>>> the rough style, but that we set up an alternative list open to everyone,
>>>> but with a minimum set of mutual respect rules, for those who prefer to
>>>> discuss without being insulted.
>>>>
>>>> This way we can benefit from everyone's contributions, and not only
>>>> those who are tough enough to discuss in these terms or that have the
>>>> know-how to set the adequate filters.
>>>>
>>>> In my experience, just knowing that there are some rules makes people
>>>> much more respectful, which means that in practice rarely any moderation is
>>>> needed.
>>>>
>>>> Would the PPI board be willing to adopt the task of maintaining such a
>>>> moderated discussion list?
>>>>
>>>> Of course, the board would be free to delegate this task, but being an
>>>> official PPI mailing list would mean that the board could always appoint a
>>>> different responsible in case of conflict, or if the interest of the
>>>> appointed responsible faded out with time. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Muriel
>>>>
>>>> valio at visionsinteractive.ch ha escrit:
>>>>
>>>> I would opt as well for an open, but moderated new list with different
>>>> rules setup from the beginning, for those that prefer to avoid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> flamewars and insults.
>>>>
>>>> I think there should be a place for free troll and flamewar speech;
>>>> trying to argue who and who isn't a troll i.e. should be kicked out is
>>>> often like arguing who and who isn't a pirate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There were discussions in the past without almost any rules. I
>>>> consider it difficult if not arbitrary to setup rules just like so. If
>>>> rules are setup IMO it either should be decided by the list owner or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> in a sufficiently democratised process. Either one is not easily
>>>> attainable; especially if contrasted with the possibility of setting
>>>> up a new list.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore I'd like to note, that for international coordinators and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> leaders already exists
>>>>  an
>>>> internal ML setup by PPI itself.
>>>> And of course in most jurisdictions you usually also have the
>>>> possibility to sue people that insult you or provide a platform for
>>>> that; just in case you think it gets really unacceptable for you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's the easy way. Given you are already certain someone wants to
>>>> troll, insult or flame you without any honest intention, why argue
>>>> with them? After all you're likely a digital native and should know
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> better what works and what not.
>>>>
>>>> -pat
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
>>>> International - General Talk pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>

-- 
Zbigniew Lukasiak
http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/