[pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list

Francisco George francisco.george at gmail.com
Sun Jun 16 09:44:37 CEST 2013 

We have tried that, making a new mail list, in PP-ES and it didn't helped


2013/6/16 Zbigniew Łukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com>

> I can see the dangers of censorship and it is probably impossible to
> objectively draw the line where starts unacceptable behaviour - but if
> we all agree that someone is abusing this list - then there should be
> something that we could do to limit that behaviour.
>
> As to Antonio and his obsession of kindergarten - I am tired with this
> as well.  It now looks like this was his private mailing list as he
> overwhelms everyone with the amount of emails he sends. Maybe we could
> ask him to limit his emails to this list to maybe once a week?
>
> Cheers,
> Zbigniew
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Tom Behets <behets at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942558_682975458385445_1334929336_n.jpg
> >
> >
> > On 16 Jun 2013, at 00:47, Muriel Rovira Esteva <muriel at pirata.cat>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Anouk,
> >
> > This list is for pirates. It's not the outer world nor the corridors of a
> > Parliament. It should be a friendly environment. This is our discussion
> > space, where we should be welcoming, motivating and encouraging newly
> > arrived pirates. Shy and intimidated people may have very good ideas or
> > insights that the whole movement can benefit from.
> >
> > We do not need every single pirate helping us to change society or
> working
> > for our cause to be at the front line shouting and speaking out loud,
> > fighting within a harsh environment of old school politicians. Everyone
> has
> > its place. Successful teamwork means that every individual should be
> > fulfilling different and complementary tasks.
> >
> > If we select only one kind of personality traits, and we only encourage a
> > kind of person to get in our team (call it enduring or whatever), we're
> very
> > likely to loose a great deal of our potential and the insights that you
> get
> > when you talk to people that are very different from you... I don't know,
> > perhaps they would be able to tell, for instance, why is the movement
> not as
> > successful sometimes as you would like it to be.
> >
> > Additionally, I do not see as our duty (nor understand this obsession)
> with
> > toughening up people who may temptatively come here to see what the
> pirates
> > are about, and which may be willing to volunteer part of their time to
> the
> > project, if the thing is appealing enough to them. Last time I checked
> this
> > wasn't the mailing list of a military camp.
> >
> > I also think that we're plural (good thing!), and understand that some
> very
> > valuable people with good ideas will not know how to express their
> thoughts
> > in a different way (call it soft or respectful). And because I don't
> want to
> > miss their insights either, that is why I think an unmoderated list
> should
> > be mantained as well.
> >
> > Why should we limit ourselves to one way or the other? Don't you think
> that
> > the more ways we have to communicate the better?
> >
> > Why do some care so much that other people talk among themselves with a
> set
> > of rules, if they please to do so? Isn't forcing this no-rules rule on
> them
> > a way of limiting their expression?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >              Muriel
> >
> >
> >
> > 2013/6/15 Anouk <jakobsheep at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> Hi Muriel and others,
> >> I like to point out that /anyone/ feeling intimidated should/must speak
> >> out loud.  For how do we know that this is happening ?
> >>
> >> Secondly, how does one survive at the real political scene ? If we can't
> >> deal with straigth forward problems as Antonio has argumented, what
> chance
> >> do the pirates have in public functions ?
> >> I still see his arguments on the table not being handled well.
> >> Kindergarten is unfortunately an good metaphore, and I like to add,
> without
> >> supervision. (although I like to point out that I also do see progress).
> >> Unfortunately sometimes things have to go worse before things improve.
> (It
> >> is called, everybody has to reinvent that same wheel)
> >> This is my opinion and I do not experience the discussions as
> intolerable,
> >> au contraire. I get more and more  insights in the persons that shout
> and
> >> curse. This is how they profile themselves, then that is how they are.
> The
> >> truth (with humans) is more often ugly then beautiful, unfortunately.
> Deal
> >> with it rather then keeping it at a distance.
> >>
> >> Anouk
> >>
> >> On Jun 15, 2013 11:03 PM, "Muriel Rovira Esteva" <muriel at pirata.cat>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> I fail to see how leaving this list as it is, and open a new one for
> >>> people who likes to discuss differently is censoring anyone in any
> way.  :)
> >>>
> >>> In any case, it would be all the contrary, it would give the oportunity
> >>> to all those who may feel a bit intimidated here to say something to
> speak
> >>> their mind and participate.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>>               Muriel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2013/6/15 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> It would help A TON... not to get away unpunished with blackmail and
> >>>> breaches of the Statutes...
> >>>>
> >>>> ... it is very difficult to feel respectful sympathy for crooks that
> >>>> fuck the rules.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Funny, this will be the second time you want things done right...
> AFTER
> >>>> consolidating benefits gathered doing things wrong.
> >>>>
> >>>> You can not ask for moderation against protest for things done
> wrong...
> >>>> to protect the consolidation of the benefits of your wrongdoing.
> >>>>
> >>>> That is nothing short of DICTATORIAL CENSORSHIP.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> You can have it, if the majority wishes it... but then the majority
> >>>> should grab for a mirror and see if it still recognizes a Pirate in
> the
> >>>> image.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Antonio.
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: muriel at pirata.cat
> >>>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:25:41 +0200
> >>>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>>> Subject: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello,
> >>>>
> >>>> I think is good that we keep this list unmoderated, for those who
> enjoy
> >>>> the rough style, but that we set up an alternative list open to
> everyone,
> >>>> but with a minimum set of mutual respect rules, for those who prefer
> to
> >>>> discuss without being insulted.
> >>>>
> >>>> This way we can benefit from everyone's contributions, and not only
> >>>> those who are tough enough to discuss in these terms or that have the
> >>>> know-how to set the adequate filters.
> >>>>
> >>>> In my experience, just knowing that there are some rules makes people
> >>>> much more respectful, which means that in practice rarely any
> moderation is
> >>>> needed.
> >>>>
> >>>> Would the PPI board be willing to adopt the task of maintaining such a
> >>>> moderated discussion list?
> >>>>
> >>>> Of course, the board would be free to delegate this task, but being an
> >>>> official PPI mailing list would mean that the board could always
> appoint a
> >>>> different responsible in case of conflict, or if the interest of the
> >>>> appointed responsible faded out with time. :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Muriel
> >>>>
> >>>> valio at visionsinteractive.ch ha escrit:
> >>>>
> >>>> I would opt as well for an open, but moderated new list with different
> >>>> rules setup from the beginning, for those that prefer to avoid
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> flamewars and insults.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think there should be a place for free troll and flamewar speech;
> >>>> trying to argue who and who isn't a troll i.e. should be kicked out is
> >>>> often like arguing who and who isn't a pirate.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> There were discussions in the past without almost any rules. I
> >>>> consider it difficult if not arbitrary to setup rules just like so. If
> >>>> rules are setup IMO it either should be decided by the list owner or
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> in a sufficiently democratised process. Either one is not easily
> >>>> attainable; especially if contrasted with the possibility of setting
> >>>> up a new list.
> >>>>
> >>>> Furthermore I'd like to note, that for international coordinators and
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> leaders already exists
> >>>>  an
> >>>> internal ML setup by PPI itself.
> >>>> And of course in most jurisdictions you usually also have the
> >>>> possibility to sue people that insult you or provide a platform for
> >>>> that; just in case you think it gets really unacceptable for you.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That's the easy way. Given you are already certain someone wants to
> >>>> troll, insult or flame you without any honest intention, why argue
> >>>> with them? After all you're likely a digital native and should know
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> better what works and what not.
> >>>>
> >>>> -pat
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> >>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
> >>>> International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ____________________________________________________
> >>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> >>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>>
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________
> >> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> >> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Zbigniew Lukasiak
> http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
> http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
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