[pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list

[Thijs Markus]

Usually, I simply ignore Antonio, or at best skim his emails. Like he 
immediately made my previous mail about his pointless squabble with 
pp-cat in ppi, despite it clearly containing generalised statements that 
apply to a broad range of circumstances. Annoying, but oh well.

One day even he will realise he's simply tossing in his own windows 
needlessly. One day he will stumble upon that old tale of the boy who 
cried wolf and realise it has little to with lying and more with 
pointless alarmism. One day he will realise he's simply ostracising 
himself by calling the rest a kindergarten and by inference himself 
superior, while getting us no closer to any sort of solution of these 
conditions. And that one day he might become valuable - he needs this 
playground no less up until that point.

Zbigniew Łukasiak schreef op 16.06.2013 08:35:
> I can see the dangers of censorship and it is probably impossible to
> objectively draw the line where starts unacceptable behaviour - but 
> if
> we all agree that someone is abusing this list - then there should be
> something that we could do to limit that behaviour.
>
> As to Antonio and his obsession of kindergarten - I am tired with 
> this
> as well.  It now looks like this was his private mailing list as he
> overwhelms everyone with the amount of emails he sends. Maybe we 
> could
> ask him to limit his emails to this list to maybe once a week?
>
> Cheers,
> Zbigniew
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Tom Behets <behets at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942558_682975458385445_1334929336_n.jpg
>>
>>
>> On 16 Jun 2013, at 00:47, Muriel Rovira Esteva <muriel at pirata.cat> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Anouk,
>>
>> This list is for pirates. It's not the outer world nor the corridors 
>> of a
>> Parliament. It should be a friendly environment. This is our 
>> discussion
>> space, where we should be welcoming, motivating and encouraging 
>> newly
>> arrived pirates. Shy and intimidated people may have very good ideas 
>> or
>> insights that the whole movement can benefit from.
>>
>> We do not need every single pirate helping us to change society or 
>> working
>> for our cause to be at the front line shouting and speaking out 
>> loud,
>> fighting within a harsh environment of old school politicians. 
>> Everyone has
>> its place. Successful teamwork means that every individual should be
>> fulfilling different and complementary tasks.
>>
>> If we select only one kind of personality traits, and we only 
>> encourage a
>> kind of person to get in our team (call it enduring or whatever), 
>> we're very
>> likely to loose a great deal of our potential and the insights that 
>> you get
>> when you talk to people that are very different from you... I don't 
>> know,
>> perhaps they would be able to tell, for instance, why is the 
>> movement not as
>> successful sometimes as you would like it to be.
>>
>> Additionally, I do not see as our duty (nor understand this 
>> obsession) with
>> toughening up people who may temptatively come here to see what the 
>> pirates
>> are about, and which may be willing to volunteer part of their time 
>> to the
>> project, if the thing is appealing enough to them. Last time I 
>> checked this
>> wasn't the mailing list of a military camp.
>>
>> I also think that we're plural (good thing!), and understand that 
>> some very
>> valuable people with good ideas will not know how to express their 
>> thoughts
>> in a different way (call it soft or respectful). And because I don't 
>> want to
>> miss their insights either, that is why I think an unmoderated list 
>> should
>> be mantained as well.
>>
>> Why should we limit ourselves to one way or the other? Don't you 
>> think that
>> the more ways we have to communicate the better?
>>
>> Why do some care so much that other people talk among themselves 
>> with a set
>> of rules, if they please to do so? Isn't forcing this no-rules rule 
>> on them
>> a way of limiting their expression?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>              Muriel
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/6/15 Anouk <jakobsheep at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Hi Muriel and others,
>>> I like to point out that /anyone/ feeling intimidated should/must 
>>> speak
>>> out loud.  For how do we know that this is happening ?
>>>
>>> Secondly, how does one survive at the real political scene ? If we 
>>> can't
>>> deal with straigth forward problems as Antonio has argumented, what 
>>> chance
>>> do the pirates have in public functions ?
>>> I still see his arguments on the table not being handled well.
>>> Kindergarten is unfortunately an good metaphore, and I like to add, 
>>> without
>>> supervision. (although I like to point out that I also do see 
>>> progress).
>>> Unfortunately sometimes things have to go worse before things 
>>> improve. (It
>>> is called, everybody has to reinvent that same wheel)
>>> This is my opinion and I do not experience the discussions as 
>>> intolerable,
>>> au contraire. I get more and more  insights in the persons that 
>>> shout and
>>> curse. This is how they profile themselves, then that is how they 
>>> are. The
>>> truth (with humans) is more often ugly then beautiful, 
>>> unfortunately. Deal
>>> with it rather then keeping it at a distance.
>>>
>>> Anouk
>>>
>>> On Jun 15, 2013 11:03 PM, "Muriel Rovira Esteva" 
>>> <muriel at pirata.cat>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I fail to see how leaving this list as it is, and open a new one 
>>>> for
>>>> people who likes to discuss differently is censoring anyone in any 
>>>> way.  :)
>>>>
>>>> In any case, it would be all the contrary, it would give the 
>>>> oportunity
>>>> to all those who may feel a bit intimidated here to say something 
>>>> to speak
>>>> their mind and participate.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>>               Muriel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/6/15 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> It would help A TON... not to get away unpunished with blackmail 
>>>>> and
>>>>> breaches of the Statutes...
>>>>>
>>>>> ... it is very difficult to feel respectful sympathy for crooks 
>>>>> that
>>>>> fuck the rules.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Funny, this will be the second time you want things done right... 
>>>>> AFTER
>>>>> consolidating benefits gathered doing things wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can not ask for moderation against protest for things done 
>>>>> wrong...
>>>>> to protect the consolidation of the benefits of your wrongdoing.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is nothing short of DICTATORIAL CENSORSHIP.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You can have it, if the majority wishes it... but then the 
>>>>> majority
>>>>> should grab for a mirror and see if it still recognizes a Pirate 
>>>>> in the
>>>>> image.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Antonio.
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: muriel at pirata.cat
>>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:25:41 +0200
>>>>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>> Subject: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think is good that we keep this list unmoderated, for those who 
>>>>> enjoy
>>>>> the rough style, but that we set up an alternative list open to 
>>>>> everyone,
>>>>> but with a minimum set of mutual respect rules, for those who 
>>>>> prefer to
>>>>> discuss without being insulted.
>>>>>
>>>>> This way we can benefit from everyone's contributions, and not 
>>>>> only
>>>>> those who are tough enough to discuss in these terms or that have 
>>>>> the
>>>>> know-how to set the adequate filters.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my experience, just knowing that there are some rules makes 
>>>>> people
>>>>> much more respectful, which means that in practice rarely any 
>>>>> moderation is
>>>>> needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would the PPI board be willing to adopt the task of maintaining 
>>>>> such a
>>>>> moderated discussion list?
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, the board would be free to delegate this task, but 
>>>>> being an
>>>>> official PPI mailing list would mean that the board could always 
>>>>> appoint a
>>>>> different responsible in case of conflict, or if the interest of 
>>>>> the
>>>>> appointed responsible faded out with time. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Muriel
>>>>>
>>>>> valio at visionsinteractive.ch ha escrit:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would opt as well for an open, but moderated new list with 
>>>>> different
>>>>> rules setup from the beginning, for those that prefer to avoid
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> flamewars and insults.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there should be a place for free troll and flamewar 
>>>>> speech;
>>>>> trying to argue who and who isn't a troll i.e. should be kicked 
>>>>> out is
>>>>> often like arguing who and who isn't a pirate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There were discussions in the past without almost any rules. I
>>>>> consider it difficult if not arbitrary to setup rules just like 
>>>>> so. If
>>>>> rules are setup IMO it either should be decided by the list owner 
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> in a sufficiently democratised process. Either one is not easily
>>>>> attainable; especially if contrasted with the possibility of 
>>>>> setting
>>>>> up a new list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore I'd like to note, that for international coordinators 
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> leaders already exists
>>>>>  an
>>>>> internal ML setup by PPI itself.
>>>>> And of course in most jurisdictions you usually also have the
>>>>> possibility to sue people that insult you or provide a platform 
>>>>> for
>>>>> that; just in case you think it gets really unacceptable for you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the easy way. Given you are already certain someone wants 
>>>>> to
>>>>> troll, insult or flame you without any honest intention, why 
>>>>> argue
>>>>> with them? After all you're likely a digital native and should 
>>>>> know
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> better what works and what not.
>>>>>
>>>>> -pat
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate 
>>>>> Parties
>>>>> International - General Talk 
>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>> 
>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> 
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>