[pp.int.general] pp.international.general Digest, Vol 76, Issue 61

[Francisco George]

I was personally the last who supported Antonio in PP-ES and the one, as
moderator of the list, to ban him to my regrets. As Juan said we try to
have him reconduct his attitude to a more educative one. But we failed.

Antonio's ideas are not that wrong and I can say I share some of them but I
have choosen the hard way: Try to integrates the newcommers to the party.

I had a solution, it was to create a preentrance list where to receive
newcommers and explain them what is the PIRATE ideals and how we deal with
events. But I didn't received the support from any side of the Party.

I joined the party not for myself. In my youth I have done lots of things
to defend liberties. I'm 56 now and have twin girls 5 y/o, I came back to
the fight for them and will not abandon.

Best regards

Francisco


2013/6/17 Galileo Galilei <otrosmundos at gmail.com>

> I barely never write in the list but, after all what's happenin' i
> want to give my opinion 'bout some points:
>
> -Antonio is a clever man, but with a very interiorized Mesiah Complex
> where he thinks he is the only one who can lead the movement and his
> own reasonings are the only ones that are right. But, If you analyze a
> bit any of them, what he is always saying it is only a junk pack of
> preacher's talk without any solutions but a lot of fails and demagogic
> mistakes. He has only two arguments in his constant speech. We are in
> a Kindergarden and that's all fault of the Massive Dinamics. While he
> can be right or not, he is puting it's own massive dinamic on it so he
> is failing in the same mistake he wants to repair. And the Playground
> question it is because he cannot admit in either way, any other person
> is right in nothing, so, in his messianic mind, we are child and we
> dont' know nothing. So he is never going to do nothing for themovement
> except to protest and insult the others, and in his mind, that's a way
> to make us evolve Those things makes him become the most noisy troll
> we have in all the movement.
>
> I dont't care about his trollness thing, he is free to say we are
> incompetent, but i care about respect and freedom in saying whatever
> you want to say, with respect. I think it is the only point we have to
> care, and that's not censhorship.. I don't think it is a need to
> insult noone or to fail in respecting him/her because you can. If you
> are smart, you don't need it. So I need a moderate rating only in that
> purpose, that i thought it was a must be in whatever we defend. So i
> suggest to moderate insults and unrespectful episodes.
>
> After that, I have to criticice the movement itself. It is true that
> int is becoming something too much institucional and without a good
> time reacting. It barely does what it's been created, to help their
> members to grow, to react on whatever the movement has to say
> something, to communicate between it's members.
>
> This global group is useless if we are not informed of were is going
> to be a new pirate election, or what we can do for helping from the
> other part of the world. This group is useless if noone gives an idea
> of what to do in things like Manning or Anonymous, and seems that is
> waiting reactions from national pirates. This group has nothing to do
> if he cannot control which parties exist, in their totallity,
> including their pages and having a public location for those
> directions of all the movement. In an easy way for all kind of
> visitors.
>
> We need a large talk about our future for becoming more visible and
> efficient, and whatever it is in the list is not the problem, the
> problem begins with organization.
>
> 2013/6/17, pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net
> <pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net>:
> > Send pp.international.general mailing list submissions to
> >       pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >
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> >
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> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> >
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of pp.international.general digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Francisco George)
> >    2. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Antonio Garcia)
> >    3. A small sample of what is happening is Brazil
> >       (SecretariaGeral Piratas)
> >    4. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Fr?d?ric JOUVIN)
> >    5. Re: Moderated PPI discussion list (Zbigniew ?ukasiak)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200
> > From: Francisco George <francisco.george at gmail.com>
> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
> > Message-ID:
> >       <CANfKYYzL=
> EzZExSSp5XaF8N8vW0Hi8RBiLCSUN5C+Nx2NEW6Uw at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Dear Antonio,
> >
> > As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT
> of
> > our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your return
> > as you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten
> > argument when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to
> evolve.
> >
> > Best regards
> > Francisco George
> > Member of the PP-ES Board
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 18:43:39 +0000
> > From: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
> > Message-ID: <DUB119-W64986C9712183379FF879DC820 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Let me guess? You ain't telling me :) .
> >
> > Please, please very much... do evolve.
> >
> >
> > Antonio.
> >
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200
> > From: francisco.george at gmail.com
> > To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
> >
> > Dear Antonio,
> >
> > As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT
> of
> > our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your
> return as
> > you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten argument
> > when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to evolve.
> >
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Francisco George
> >
> > Member of the PP-ES Board
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 23:14:57 -0300
> > From: SecretariaGeral Piratas <secretariageral at partidopirata.org>
> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > Subject: [pp.int.general] A small sample of what is happening is
> >       Brazil
> > Message-ID:
> >       <
> CAF_PSNMrKNrkNFzH6pdyU71QPVF0uAvD3fks6pDrMOSzFEab+g at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > ... in case you were wondering:
> >
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/ppbr-partido-pirata-do-brasil/nota-do-partido-pirata-do-brasil-sobre-as-manifesta%C3%A7%C3%B5es-decorrentes-do-aumento-d/632006643493515
> >
> > People kneeling on the floor with their hands in the air were being shot
> at
> > almost point-blank with rubber bullets, on their faces. Expired tear gas
> > shells were shot.
> >
> > Press was attacked as well, arrested. One reporter was shot in the eye
> and
> > is blind, another one almost got blind.
> >
> > Police seizing vinegar from protesters and press so they cannot protect
> > themselves from the effects of tear gas and pepper spray. And so on.
> >
> >  And it?s spreading around the country. Police abuse in S?o Paulo last
> > week, police abuse yesterday in Brasilia, police abuse today in Rio de
> > Janeiro. And many, many other cities.
> >
> > FIFA Confederations Cup began in Brazil. Government created no-protest
> > no-expression exception zones around the country, so things will get
> > rougher.
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 08:33:44 +0200
> > From: Fr?d?ric JOUVIN <frederic.jouvin at gmail.com>
> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > Cc: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
> > Message-ID: <90E5775F-11A1-4A68-956D-2552CF1B0FBF at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Hi Antonio.
> >
> > I am here to bring you my full support, from my PP FR personnal disaster
> > experience.
> >
> > I loved particularily loved one of your declarations :
> >
> > "PPI is becoming another damn USA governmentlike corporate entity,
> counting
> > on all the children to unwittingly make up the big controlled mass."
> >
> > I've read some of your emails, and mostly agree with all what you are
> > stating.
> >
> > Regarding the most important problems I saw in France at PP FR is that
> they
> > are good at :
> >
> > - Spending all their energy and time in doing things that will not change
> > the future at all, not even help spreading our voice and values. Indeed,
> > every time somebody wants to build a project that could have an impact on
> > something, this guy is charged by a clearly "nasayer" identified group
> that
> > will pull it out of the party.
> >
> > - Too much infiltrations from some governement agencies into the party
> > itself, so much that real cypherpunks and hacktivists are clearly adviced
> > not to go to the PP FR if they do not want to get into serious troubles.
> >
> > - They clearly did all what they could to in the end not support bradley
> > manning, assange, etc. They hardly fake their support to the cypherpunk
> > values and goals. They never want to really support any true hacktivists
> > event. They don't like the Anon familly and so on. I had to fight like
> > nobody could believe about bradley manning.
> >
> > - They don't want to talk about philosophy and values of the cypherpunks.
> >
> > To me, they defend the current system and statut quo, and they don't
> give a
> > fuck about cypherpunks and crypto-anarchists values and revolution.
> >
> > And yes, to me, it's leading to nowhere.
> > They are here just to make people loose their time.
> >
> > Of course, they are some real and honnest pirates in this party, but it's
> > like they have lost influence, and power, and they can't spread the good
> > words and love in this party any longer.
> >
> > ----------------------------------
> > Le 16 juin 2013 ? 20:43, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> a
> ?crit :
> >
> >> Let me guess? You ain't telling me :) .
> >>
> >> Please, please very much... do evolve.
> >>
> >>
> >> Antonio.
> >>
> >> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200
> >> From: francisco.george at gmail.com
> >> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
> >>
> >> Dear Antonio,
> >> As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT
> of
> >> our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your
> return
> >> as you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten
> >> argument when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to
> >> evolve.
> >> Best regards
> >> Francisco George
> >> Member of the PP-ES Board
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
> >> International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >> ____________________________________________________
> >> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> >> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > <
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:00:49 +0200
> > From: Zbigniew ?ukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com>
> > To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> >       <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
> > Message-ID:
> >       <
> CAGL_UUthiUUL0Mt6UmYx60AZ6kWMZRrS1NMEfw7u2pMg50WW7w at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Fr?d?ric JOUVIN
> > <frederic.jouvin at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi Antonio.
> >>
> >> I am here to bring you my full support, from my PP FR personnal disaster
> >> experience.
> >>
> >> I loved particularily loved one of your declarations :
> >>
> >> "PPI is becoming another damn USA governmentlike corporate entity,
> >> counting
> >> on all the children to unwittingly make up the big controlled mass."
> >>
> >> I've read some of your emails, and mostly agree with all what you are
> >> stating.
> >>
> >> Regarding the most important problems I saw in France at PP FR is that
> >> they
> >> are good at :
> >>
> >> - Spending all their energy and time in doing things that will not
> change
> >> the future at all, not even help spreading our voice and values. Indeed,
> >> every time somebody wants to build a project that could have an impact
> on
> >> something, this guy is charged by a clearly "nasayer" identified group
> >> that
> >> will pull it out of the party.
> >>
> >> - Too much infiltrations from some governement agencies into the party
> >> itself, so much that real cypherpunks and hacktivists are clearly
> adviced
> >> not to go to the PP FR if they do not want to get into serious troubles.
> >>
> >> - They clearly did all what they could to in the end not support bradley
> >> manning, assange, etc. They hardly fake their support to the cypherpunk
> >> values and goals. They never want to really support any true hacktivists
> >> event. They don't like the Anon familly and so on. I had to fight like
> >> nobody could believe about bradley manning.
> >>
> >> - They don't want to talk about philosophy and values of the
> cypherpunks.
> >>
> >> To me, they defend the current system and statut quo, and they don't
> give
> >> a
> >> fuck about cypherpunks and crypto-anarchists values and revolution.
> >>
> >> And yes, to me, it's leading to nowhere.
> >> They are here just to make people loose their time.
> >>
> >> Of course, they are some real and honnest pirates in this party, but
> it's
> >> like they have lost influence, and power, and they can't spread the good
> >> words and love in this party any longer.
> >
> > I can understand your frustration - but unfortunately I don't know too
> > much about the French pirates - so I cannot discuss that part of your
> > email.
> >
> > As to your support for Antonio Garcia - does that mean that you
> > believe that one person should have the right to dominate this mailing
> > list by an avalanche of emails?  I don't.  Personally I also find
> > these emails frequently void of any new content and filled with the
> > same expressions of his frustration.  This boring and also frustrating
> > to read this over and over again, but I would not complain on that,
> > because it is hard to draw a line here and decide who is boring and
> > repeating.  What is more objective and easier to judge is the sheer
> > amount of text he sends to this list - this is like shouting in a
> > meeting - effectively making other voices inaudible and this is not
> > democratic.  I have the feeling he does not want to take us as his
> > peers - but rather beat us into submission by his writing.  I don't
> > find this kind of action acceptable.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Zbigniew
> >
> >
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------
> >> Le 16 juin 2013 ? 20:43, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> a
> ?crit
> >> :
> >>
> >> Let me guess? You ain't telling me :) .
> >>
> >> Please, please very much... do evolve.
> >>
> >>
> >> Antonio.
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:18:16 +0200
> >> From: francisco.george at gmail.com
> >> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list
> >>
> >> Dear Antonio,
> >> As spaniards say, you are just being "CANSINO". That is why you are OUT
> >> of
> >> our general talk list(but remain in others). And don't forsee your
> return
> >> as
> >> you haven't change. Just too easy to use always the KinderGarten
> argument
> >> when you don't even give the slightest chance to anyone to evolve.
> >> Best regards
> >> Francisco George
> >> Member of the PP-ES Board
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
> >> International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________
> >> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> >> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________________
> >> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> >> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> >> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Zbigniew Lukasiak
> > http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
> > http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pp.international.general mailing list
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
> >
> >
> > End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 76, Issue 61
> > ********************************************************
> >
>
>
> --
> "Natural e Inconfundible :)"
> "La informatica es una competición entre los ingenieros del software,
> que tratan de crear mejores programas a prueba de tontos; y el
> Universo, que trata de crear mejores tontos. Por ahora el Universo va
> ganando..."
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
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