[pp.int.general] Pirates and the 5 Star Movement

Zbigniew Łukasiak zzbbyy at gmail.com
Fri Mar 1 07:22:00 CET 2013

In Poland we have Ruch Poparcia Palikota - it started with the same
anti-establishment, slightly comedic, populist program, but it is very
authoritarian inside.  They had a huge success last elections but now
apparently it is falling apart because of lack of core ideas.  Palikot
seems to lead the party where ever the polls show.  Hard to predict
how much it will retract.  I also consider the PP-DE somehow populist.


On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:31 PM, carlo von lynX
<lynX at pirate.my.buttharp.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 03:27:03PM +0100, Cal. wrote:
>> Youngs are a strict minority, and they're probably voting the movement,
>> not the grillo leader???they could move any moment to a pirate party, if
>> they're not enough brainwashed.
> I'll elaborate on that...
> M5S has done an impressive job but as Pirates it is our duty
> to point our finger to the severe issues in M5S' internal
> democracy.. or rather its lack of.
> It is easy to have a beautiful party programme if others are
> writing it for you and you remain in full power to decide
> what choices the movement actually makes.
> Our criticism is well-known within the more active among the
> M5S activists (not necessarily the ones that comment in blogs)
> and shared by many of them, since they brought the topic up
> before us. We just developed our own opinion, read the statutes
> and came to the same conclusions.
> They are all just waiting for Grillo and his staff, the
> Casaleggio company, to fulfil the promises of making everyone
> take part in decisions and pass the movement into the hands of
> true grassroots, electronic or liquid democracy.
> And many important figures know that we are fighting out the
> extremely difficult next step: being a party without a board.
> So they are already looking at us to share our experience,
> the good and the bad, as "uno vale uno" - each person counts
> as one - is their essential party motto and they care very
> much for solutions to actually make this possible.
> There are four possible scenarios:
> - Grillo fulfills his promise and the movement starts
>   practicing what it preaches. If they're so good that they
>   even fulfil the core pirate dreams and get rid of their
>   populist stuff in the current programme, a merger is not out
>   of the question.. I say merger because our statutes are
>   more suitable to the job then theirs - and I especially
>   mean merger in the international perspective. I know how
>   unimportant we are on a local level.
> - Grillo does not and a relevant number of activists
>   leaves the movement to form its own party.
> - Grillo does not and a relevant number of activists
>   leave to join the Pirate Party because we are ahead with
>   our liquid directorate and maybe got it working by then.
> - Grillo does not and nothing happens. I presume in that case
>   population will soon figure out that it just elected a new
>   Berlusconi* and look for new alternatives. And that case
>   the race is open again, and Italy is currently *very* fluid.
> *) AFAIK in 1994 Berlusconi launched his FORZA ITALIA movement
>    in a similar way to Beppe Grillo, with a company running
>    the party and allowing no democratic interference at all.
>    The success was very similar. In 1994 it worked by television
>    that Berlusconi happened to run. This time it was the Internet.
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Zbigniew Lukasiak

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