[pp.int.general] Pirates and the 5 Star Movement

[Giulio Prisco]

Re "the severe issues in M5S' internal democracy.. or rather its lack of."

I hate saying this, but I am afraid the M5S wouldn't be where it is today
with internal democracy.

Some Pirate Parties, including those in Italy (last time I checked there
were 2) are paralyzed by lack of decision-making, internal bitchiness and
infighting, and childish behavior on the mailing lists with
mine-is-bigger-than-yours pissing contests and all that.

I am all for internal democracy but it is a difficult game to play, with
some learning required.

In the meantime I hope Beppe Grillo will kick some ass in Italy, and kick
it hard.

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:31 PM, carlo von lynX <lynX at pirate.my.buttharp.org
> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 03:27:03PM +0100, Cal. wrote:
> > Youngs are a strict minority, and they're probably voting the movement,
> > not the grillo leader???they could move any moment to a pirate party, if
> > they're not enough brainwashed.
>
> I'll elaborate on that...
>
> M5S has done an impressive job but as Pirates it is our duty
> to point our finger to the severe issues in M5S' internal
> democracy.. or rather its lack of.
>
> It is easy to have a beautiful party programme if others are
> writing it for you and you remain in full power to decide
> what choices the movement actually makes.
>
> Our criticism is well-known within the more active among the
> M5S activists (not necessarily the ones that comment in blogs)
> and shared by many of them, since they brought the topic up
> before us. We just developed our own opinion, read the statutes
> and came to the same conclusions.
>
> They are all just waiting for Grillo and his staff, the
> Casaleggio company, to fulfil the promises of making everyone
> take part in decisions and pass the movement into the hands of
> true grassroots, electronic or liquid democracy.
>
> And many important figures know that we are fighting out the
> extremely difficult next step: being a party without a board.
> So they are already looking at us to share our experience,
> the good and the bad, as "uno vale uno" - each person counts
> as one - is their essential party motto and they care very
> much for solutions to actually make this possible.
>
> There are four possible scenarios:
>
> - Grillo fulfills his promise and the movement starts
>   practicing what it preaches. If they're so good that they
>   even fulfil the core pirate dreams and get rid of their
>   populist stuff in the current programme, a merger is not out
>   of the question.. I say merger because our statutes are
>   more suitable to the job then theirs - and I especially
>   mean merger in the international perspective. I know how
>   unimportant we are on a local level.
>
> - Grillo does not and a relevant number of activists
>   leaves the movement to form its own party.
>
> - Grillo does not and a relevant number of activists
>   leave to join the Pirate Party because we are ahead with
>   our liquid directorate and maybe got it working by then.
>
> - Grillo does not and nothing happens. I presume in that case
>   population will soon figure out that it just elected a new
>   Berlusconi* and look for new alternatives. And that case
>   the race is open again, and Italy is currently *very* fluid.
>
>
> *) AFAIK in 1994 Berlusconi launched his FORZA ITALIA movement
>    in a similar way to Beppe Grillo, with a company running
>    the party and allowing no democratic interference at all.
>    The success was very similar. In 1994 it worked by television
>    that Berlusconi happened to run. This time it was the Internet.
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
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>
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