[pp.int.general] Last GA proceedings

Mon Mar 11 21:23:27 CET 2013

Dear Gregory,

I had been arguing with several delegates exactly why PP-ES would vote GREEN on several proposed _amendments to the statutes_, and why nevertheless it was in their and PPI's interest that those amendmends did not make it.

As things got postponed and finally the General Assembly was going to close WITHOUT tabling those amendments... I could certainly see it as a victory, and even wondered if somebody would not have cleverly planned it that way to get rid of the issue altogether. The only backdrop was that while in waiting on how things would finally resolve... I kept some ideas I wanted to share with the Pirate Community at large for myself until sure that it would not decide the wrong thing.

Then we got the blackmail of Kenneth Peiruza and the subsequent MOB RULE due to the demagogic behaviour of the delegates of the Catalan Pirate Party... and some other.

As the Statutes had not been amended to allow for more than one full member per country (the joke of the CoA afterwards to find a fit for that is just that, a bad joke), AND the Statutes did not allow for membership issues to be voted upon without following due process (you remember those Statutes, do you? a four week deadline to submit applications and thus become an legit _applicant_, and a two week deadline for member parties to be informed about applying candidates so they can make up their minds on what way to vote for every applicant... I believe that the applicants whose bid was turned down because of not meeting the strict deadlines, as sentenced by an insite deliberation of the Court of Arbitration will diligently refresh your memory)... the alleged motion that was tabled by PP-AU (I was told it never intended to be a motion, so I will not blame them for the folly that happened) was illegal and statutory void to begin with, no way that something like that could be validated by any selfrespecting and sound institution.

So we had something that would be deemed illegal and void any way a decent man or institution would look at it... and in that sense I had already won the battle.

On the other hand, I had been telling the delegates I would vote GREEN to the amendments and why, and while the supposed motion was not an amendment... I guessed nobody would understand a damn thing if I apparently turned my back on everything I had been saying.

So, because it should not have mattered anyway... y provided continuity and consistency by behaving like anyone would have expected after all I had said.

The rest of the folly is the responsibility of all of you... Pirates. 

It looks as if we are willing to loose yet another year on the issue. Afterwards you will complain about the negotiations about PP-EU going nowhere in time...

I gues sooner or later only those willing to merely play like kids in a kindergarten will stay in PPI... if too many insist on having it without any kind of regards for enforceable rules.

Antonio.

CC: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
From: Gregory.Engels at piratenpartei-hessen.de
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 20:34:02 +0100
To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Last GA proceedings

Der Antonio,
Thank you for returning to a constructive tone and for enlighten me of your views of what happened in Prague. I was not in the room at that time as I was caught up in press conversations and in the first board meeting that we had in a separate room.
I dare say, that holding up a green card while hoping the matter to fail is.... contra productive to say the least. As I been told, the admission of PP-ES-CA as full member has happened with a two third majority of the votes cast. I know from the report of the German delegation, that it was the holding up of the PP-ES's green card that let the German vote to be abstention. 
And to make a point - I take it as a compliment, if you say, that I talk as a bureaucrat, as it is indeed the position that I fill as the officer of the international Organisation of Pirate Parties, and I liked that you have not blamed me to talk as a "politician" here, as this would be hurting, since I try to stick to the mere facts here. 
Sincerely yours, Gregory Engels

Sent from the road from a tablet device.(Please excuse the spelling)
On 11.03.2013, at 15:36, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Very short:

Very shortsighted, I should say.

> 1) PP-ES-CA was already an observer member at the time of PPI GA in
> Prague.#

Nowhere in the current statutes can I find any alternative procedure to
plain standard application for obtaining a status change.

It would not be wise on your part to even suggest that all present
observer members can happily apply for full membership by mere request on
being physically or even remotely present at the PPI GA.

It would deny the logical efficience of having all the member parties duly
informed about the intentions of said parties and able to evaluate whether
they would vote for or against it in an informed and weighted way.

Having the incredible situation of last year not undone... shall have dire
consequences for the little credibility PPI has left.

> 1a) PP-ES, your own party has voted in favor of upgrading the PP-ES-CA
> membership, so why are you complaining?

I am complaining because you have very poor understanding of the situation
as it developed in Prague (or want everything explained to your advantage,
ethics be damned). Allow me at least this time to know better. If you care
to look up the picture of the Spanish vote Slim Amamou circulated over
twitter... I dare you to say it is not ME holding up the green card on
that vote ;þ . Please, allow me to know better than you why I voted green.

Though I told it at the time to any delegate present willing to listen but
of course the Catalan ones, I'll happily repeat it here for anyone to know
now...

I convinced my fellow delegates of the Spanish Pirate Party (there were
three of us, remember, thus if both had not agreed with me then the
majority vote would have been to vote red, I did not act as a sole
dictator) of the fact that it would do the PPI no good if PP-ES and PP-CAT
were to fight an open battle at the PPI GA over the statute amendments
proposed by the Catalans and some others. Ask Thomas Gaul why he finally
gave in to PP-CAT's threat when Kenneth Peiruza threatened to be very well
capable of acting as a bad boy too (PP-DE needed the PPI GA to be a success
very badly, as it was scheduled just before elections in two Länder in
Germany) and imagine what it would have been like if the PP-ES delegates
had been playing that childish game of threats too...

Now, bear with me, we decided together to vote GREEN to the _amendments_
to the statutes about allowing the Catalan Pirate Party as a full member of
PPI for TWO very STRATEGICAL reasons:

1) Of course, to avoid derailing the PPI General Assembly with endless
arguments and bitter fighting between PP-ES and PP-CAT over the acceptance
or not of PP-CAT's wishes to become a full member. They almost achieved it
without our contribution... imagine if we had ;) .

2) To avoid turning the situation in Spain into an outright Civil War
between PP-ES and PP-CAT as soon as our RED vote was recorded... for maybe
no gain at all.

If you care to do an effort to understand... PP-ES had only ONE vote among
many, and we played it strategically to the best of my abilities.

According to our Statutes:

(2) Decisions concerning the admission of new Members (section III. paragraph 4), the exclusion of Members (section VII, paragraph 2), the determination of the annual affiliation fee (section XVI, paragraph 1) and the amendment of this Statutes (section XX), shall be passed by a two thirds majority of the votes cast.

(I did not even check if this 2/3 majority was even attained at the vote
that took place finally, as I knew the motion and vote to be invalid
anyway. Anyone care to check that detail?)

So, instead of publicly fighting it out in heated-up arguments with PP-CAT
we preferred to lobby the individual delegates that had to vote, and secure
a logical and ethical defeat of the proposed amendments.

Because any positive agreement had to be passed by a 2/3 majority... it
would have sufficed to convince 1/3 of the present delegates to vote
against it, and if we did not achieve that (but we expected to achieve
much more) then our SINGLE vote against it would be worthless anyway.

So, we played smart... those we could logically and ethically convince
would be enough to stop the folly, and our vote would be green to buy us
much needed peace both at the PPI GA and at the home front.

As I see it now... too many were not smart enough to understand the gambit.

> 2) PPI COA has ruled that the decision of the GA was valid.

And the foolishness of it will for ever tarnish the reputation of PPI and
its CoA. A CoA noone was happy about and that was forced to resign because
of its sheer incompetence.

Do you care if we discuss its rulings thoroughly?

I know Marco Ciurcina, the Italian member who happens to be a professional
lawyer wrote a mail to me complaining that I was dragging his professional
reputation through the dirt (as only lawyers know how ;) )... and that he
went silent after I explained the situation to him and dared him to
challenge my assumptions.

My anonymous complaint to the CoA about Statutes breaches is I hope still
queued and I expect it to be properly treated at the PPI GA in Kazan.

After that one gets solved and creates a situation back on track... we will
be able to discuss all the rest.

Or will you dare to ignore a complaint about a serious breach of Statutes
that has had and continues to have serious consequences, and pretend to
build on the skewed logics and unethical situation that the de facto
chaos at the Prague GA of PPI generated?

> 2a) there are statutes amendment proposals that aim to solve the current
> statutorily state

I will light a bright fire with them as soon as I start argumenting.

Plus, one year of irregular profit should be enough reward for daring to
blackmail the PPI General Assembly, and I will make sure the majority of
the members understands this clearly.

> 3) PPI Board has not dissolved the PPI COA as we do not have such power.
> COA was elected by the GA and only GA has the right to remove PPI
> Officers.

You talk like a bureaucrat, hopefully at the end of his last mandate.

> 4) Please stop call this MAFIA and look up this term in the dictionary.
> By insulting the PPI, you are insulting yourself, as we are just the sum
> of our members.

Do not project the incompetence of the Board and the Court of Arbitration
upon the whole of PPI, it is not a proper defence of your deeds. 

> sincerely yours, 

> Gregory Engels
> Co-Chairman
> Pirate Parties International

> mobile: +49 172 853 44 91
> skype:gregory.engels
> jabber:dichter at jabber.piratenpartei.de
> my free time: http://doodle.com/dichter

Allow me to doubt the sincerity.

Have a nice day.

Antonio.

From: gregory.engels at pp-international.net
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 01:11:24 +0100
To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Last GA proceedings

Very short:
1) PP-ES-CA was already an observer member at the time of PPI GA in Prague.#1a) PP-ES, your own party has voted in favor of upgrading the PP-ES-CA membership, so why are you complaining?2) PPI COA has ruled that the decision of the GA was valid.2a) there are statutes amendment proposals that aim to solve the current statutorily state3) PPI Board has not dissolved the PPI COA as we do not have such power. COA was elected by the GA and only GA has the right to remove PPI Officers. 4) Please stop call this MAFIA and look up this term in the dictionary. By insulting the PPI, you are insulting yourself, as we are just the sum of our members.

sincerely yours, 
Gregory EngelsCo-ChairmanPirate Parties International
mobile: +49 172 853 44 91skype:gregory.engelsjabber:dichter at jabber.piratenpartei.demy free time: http://doodle.com/dichter

On 10.03.2013, at 12:39, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> wrote:http://www.facebook.com/pirateparty.be/posts/281428161942677
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKWFElKDbZ0

transcript: http://piratepad.ca/Minutes-PPIGA2014
(alternative link: 

http://www.facebook.com/pirateparty.be/posts/317575658308162
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1k8fMoyXAM

transcript: http://piratepad.ca/Minutes-PPIGA2014-sunday
(alternative link: http://archive.is/0rVK )

As everybody can see here [1] the Pirate Party of Catalonia was NOT listed under the applicants for full membership to the PPI, so the PPI GA had NO RIGHT to vote on the issue because of a motion, not even an alledged and misinterpreted one, as can be deduced from Art. III (3) and III (4) of the Statutes [2].

For those of you that might be less expedient understanding written words... the PPI GA can ONLY decide at its sole discretion whether it grants APPLICANTS the status they desire when applying or any other status it deems more appropiate, AND NOTHING ELSE.

When viewing the video of day 1, one does not find the Catalan Pirate Party performing when all the applicants are supposed to present themselves, furthering evidence that they were, for the time being, not applying for full membership.

The Pirate Party of Catalonia was NOT listed as an applicant, and its bid for full membership during the PPI Assembly should have been discarded with more authority than were the applications of those other Pirate Parties that missed the statutory deadlines and were told they had to wait for next time by the Court of Arbitration.

But MOB RULE insisted on having a vote, and the chair had to give in to avoid as scandal due to the blackmailing of Kenneth Peiruza from the Catalan Pirate Party... who seriously threathened to be able to act as the bad boy too... and derail the PPI GA at a moment that the German Pirate Party could not afford... there was a lot of German press present as the PPI GA happened short before elections in two German Länder were due.

Then we had the scandals of the PPI CoA decision to validate the proceedings of the 2012 PPI GA [3] and to grant Spain a second Gibraltar so Catalonia and the Catalan Pirate Party could fit in the scheme of things within the existing Statutes of PPI (well, sort of) [4].

And then we had the "clever" solution of the Board of PPI to have the CoA dissolved and out of the way so that it should not have to decide on the complaint I submitted.

At this moment, the PPI behaves more like a MAFFIA than the IP MAFFIA, and has totally lost the moral high ground among all but childish pirates.

It has even decided to EXILE the next GA to the controlled environment of KAZAN so that it can stay in control of the situation :) .

Are we to be PIRATES, or a bunch of SHEEPLE? 

To be or not to be...

... principled.

If I am to be the only one left to fight for logical and ethical coherence within the Pirate Movement... we are not going to that far anymore.

Antonio.

aka NingúnOtro & @SameDoKan
Board Member of the Spanish Pirate Party.

P.S.: If we are to discuss any of this matter seriously... in KAZAN ;) ... I need sponsoring to get there. Any volunteers?

[1]
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