[pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia

Wed Mar 13 18:37:11 CET 2013

So close, Betiel, so close.
On Mar 13, 2013 1:33 PM, "Betiel" <betielix at gmail.com> wrote:

> well. it is very boring...and has nothing in common with the ppi per se.
> why don`t you just send the message to the person you have a problem
> instead of us all?
> Like I`m doing with this email.
>
> Betiel
>
>
> 2013/3/13 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>
>> It's very hard to achieve... as long as you insist on being the pain in
>> everybodies ass.
>>
>> And it seems you run out of rational arguments real soon and have to
>> resort to emotional crap and populist bulshit.
>>
>> You can count on fingers how many times I have brought up the issue...
>>
>> ... I know it is very boring for the rest of the audience...
>>
>> ... but it depends also on them that this issue is duly dealt with and
>> scrapped of any future agenda.
>>
>>
>> I've got some logical and ethical redlines... you will have peace when
>> you cease to challenge them.
>>
>>
>> Antonio.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> From: i at dario.im
>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:38:59 +0100
>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> CC: jordi at soucheiron.cat
>>
>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia
>>
>> Please, stop referring to us. We are not Australia (OP of this thread).
>>
>> I guess you know everything about CUP (3,48% of votes in last elections),
>> a more-than-20-years-old grassroots and independentist catalan political
>> party which ripped off a lot of shared voters between them and us, because
>> we overlap in vote population/distribution and social networks. We analyzed
>> it statistically and this is what we found (also we have shared members).
>>
>> How would you win against a similar (in appearance) grassroots movement
>> with a 20 times bigger budget (a five-zero figure) than ours, with elected
>> representatives and majors, lots of activists and resources everywhere and
>> a current political context* favoring independentists movements?
>>
>> * For everyone who doesn't live in Catalonia: last September 11th
>> (national catalan day) we had an independentist demonstration with about
>> one million people (we are about seven million people). Next year (2014) it
>> is going to be 300th anniversay of our national day and independentism is
>> very strong (the second most voted party is independentist - 13,68% of
>> votes).
>>
>> If you dare to plot a feasible masterplan for that kind of situation,
>> please, change the subject of this thread to "Here is the masterplan that
>> catalan pirates should have followed" and answer my mail. If not, don't
>> waste your time answering any mail, because you won't have a clue, and this
>> will be my last communication about your constant rant.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>> 2013/3/13 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Now, can you only imagine how everything looks like from a PP-ES point of
>> view... and care to explain to our international audience why for Christ's
>> sake from a PIRATE point of view the creation of a separate Pirate Party in
>> Catalonia, and all the bullshit it has brought to the pirate situation in
>> Spain, in Europe and in the rest of the world was so inevitable?
>>
>> Hopefully, something different than plain Catalan Seny(l) like the one
>> that has some independent Catalan Embassies disseminated throughout the
>> world, and keeps bullying international sports federations to have
>> independent Catalan delegations accepted at mayor sports events.
>>
>> But you have experienced that blackmailing Pirate General Assemblies
>> pays... at least temporally, so why should you not insist in Kazán?
>>
>> Meanwhile, anyone for which logics and ethics have meaning... are well on
>> their way to exile themselves from any instance where they would be forced
>> to coexist with the contamination you represent.
>>
>> Once the intelligent people are gone, of their own free and unbendable
>> will...
>>
>> ... the rest can but collapse, no matter how much time it takes. It's
>> called decadence.
>>
>>
>> Dare call yourself a Pirate... and insist.
>>
>>
>> Antonio.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:30:54 +0100
>> From: jordi at soucheiron.cat
>>
>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia
>>
>> You're right, in the last elections we didn't perform as well as we'd
>> have liked to. But I must disagree with you about the causes of the results
>> of the last elections. The main problem we face is not that people know our
>> ideals and disagree with them, but the other way round: they don't know
>> what we offer as a political party and when they do they mostly agree. What
>> we need in order to gain relevance is a huge educational effort, most
>> people just think that we only want free downloads from any kind of
>> copyrighted content. Fortunately this effort is being done and day by day
>> our ideals are starting to be known by the general public.
>> On the other hand youre main problem is from another completely different
>> nature. You obviously also have the problem stated above (like many other
>> pirate parties), but you have a very serious involvement problem. To
>> express it in a few words: most individuals that try to make anything
>> relevant for your party are demotivated by a very small but influential
>> group that sabotages any action that they don't consider appropriate. This
>> is causing the gradual dismemberment of the Spanish Pirate Party in a
>> Confederation of Pirate Parties that has assimilated all the motivated and
>> active individuals that the Spanish Pirate Party has rejected.
>> We are a small party, we are well aware of that. But we are already
>> working to improve how things work in the local governments where we have a
>> seat.
>> I would please ask you to abstain writing emails without any kind of
>> constructive critique. We are certainly aware of our weaknesses and
>> destructive critiques like yours are only a waste of time to many of us
>> that don't enjoy from as much free time as you seem to have.
>> Sincerely,
>> Jordi Soucheiron
>>
>>
>> 2013/3/13 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>>
>> Please, care to justify to all those, mainly germans, who put all faith
>> in you as a way to solve the Spanish conflict, and rolled out the red
>> carpet in PPI and PP-EU...
>>
>> ... why you failed them so miserably in the last regional elections, not
>> being able to perform minimally, even with >1.000 members, even in the
>> highly concentrated and urban area of Barcelona.
>>
>> A Barcelona that projects herself as cosmopolitan and geek-minded as
>> Berlin, where the German Pirate Party started to perform extremely well
>> recently, even if they have lost north these last months.
>>
>> You do care, or do you have only vaporware on offer?
>>
>>
>> Antonio.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> From: david.arcos at gmail.com
>> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:32:30 +0100
>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>
>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 7:10 PM, José Manuel Goig <
>> hosemanuelgoc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is a great difference between PP-CAT and PP-ES. PP-CAT can only act
>> in the territory of Catalonia but PP-ES can act in all of the territory of
>> Spain, including Catalonia. So, in Catalonia both parties could stand for
>> election at the same time competing for the same electorate. This is so
>> because Catalonia is right now a part of Spain. Whenever Catalonia chooses
>> to be a "sovereign state", all this will change and there will be no
>> problem.
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry, but that's B.S. You either have no clue about the Spanish
>> electoral law, or are trying to intoxicate.
>>
>> I feel forced to quote some sources (duty calls! <http://xkcd.com/386/>)
>>
>>
>> - Fact 1: in Spain, all the elections have a *regional circunscription*("provincia"), except for the European elections, where the circunscription
>> is all Spain.
>>
>> Source:
>> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Circunscripciones#Espa.C3.B1a
>>
>> > España posee *52 circunscripciones* para la elección de diputados de
>> su cámara baja: 50 provinciales y 2 pertenecientes a las ciudades de Ceuta
>> y a Melilla.
>> > En las elecciones al *Parlamento Europeo* España tiene *una única
>> circunscripción nacional*.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Fact 2: in Spain, the only requirement are (a) providing *full lists*and (b)
>> *gathering signatures* ("avales"). Any party (even regional parties) can
>> run in all the country (or other regions), provided they have the
>> signatures.
>>
>> Source:
>> http://www.portalelectoral.es/content/view/1008/122/
>>
>> > (...) para poder presentar una *candidatura a las elecciones* al
>> Congreso de los Diputados y al Senado, necesitan la firma, al menos, del*0,1 por ciento de los electores
>> * inscritos en el censo electoral de la circunscripción por la que
>> pretendan su elección.
>> > En el caso de las elecciones al *Parlamento Europeo*, el artículo
>> 220.3 de la LOREG exige para la presentación de candidaturas, como
>> requisito común para partidos, federaciones, coaliciones electorales y
>> agrupaciones de electores, la acreditación de las* firmas de 15.000
>> electores*.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, legally speaking, PP-CAT:
>> - could run for the elections outside Catalan circunscriptions
>> - could even run for the full Spain circunscription in the European
>> Elections.
>> In practice, PP-CAT:
>> - could provide lists easily, as it has run in all the elections (4)
>> since its creation (2 years ago).
>> - getting 15k signatures could be a challenge, but in the past elections
>> we got >11k in half the time in just Catalonia (20% of Spain), so it's a
>> reasonable assumption..
>>
>>
>> Legally speaking, PP-ES could also run for all the elections.
>> But in practice, it has never been able to do so: didn't have enough
>> people to make the lists, didn't have enough signatures. (The only
>> exceptions have been some brave local groups that could provide lists and
>> signatures, without any kind of help from PP-ES board)
>> With >1k members, PP-ES could barely gather 1k signatures for the last
>> European elections. Right now, with <100 members, do you really believe it
>> would be able to gather 15k?
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, PP-ES is dead. it was killed by a few trolls who got a bit
>> of power power, then managed to kick a lot of members, then climbed into
>> higher positions, then caused a bigger exodus of members...
>> The internal problems in PP-ES have nothing to do with nationalisms, but
>> with a pyramidal hierarchy, and the wrong people in the wrong positions.
>>
>>
>> Finally, there it's never been a nationalism issue. Check the Spanish
>> map, and the pirate parties on it: http://confederacionpirata.org
>> All the Spanish pirate parties in the  'Confederación Pirata' are working
>> together on campaings, and are ok with sharing a single vote in PPI.
>>
>> All the nationalist/anti-catalanist<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catalanism> conspiranoia is
>> a ridiculous attempt to divert attemption from the important issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> My 2 cents...
>>
>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
>> International - General Talk pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
>> International - General Talk pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dario Castañé
>> http://www.dario.im | http://twitter.com/im_dario
>>
>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
>> International - General Talk pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________
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