[pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia

Wed Mar 13 18:44:22 CET 2013

Because then I give the impression that I concede a victory, and I can not afford to do that.

It takes them not trying to score...

Things are being routinely skewed to their advantage by too many... if I do not abort the tries immediately... I know I will be swamped by whatever foul argument I leave unchallenged later on.

What is the Argentinian take on the issue?

Best Pirate wishes.

Antonio.
aka NingúnOtro & @SameDoKan
Board Member of the Spanish Pirate Party

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:33:01 -0300
From: betielix at gmail.com
To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia

well. it is very boring...and has nothing in common with the ppi per se. why don`t you just send the message to the person you have a problem instead of us all?Like I`m doing with this email.

Betiel

2013/3/13 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>

It's very hard to achieve... as long as you insist on being the pain in everybodies ass.

And it seems you run out of rational arguments real soon and have to resort to emotional crap and populist bulshit.

You can count on fingers how many times I have brought up the issue...

... I know it is very boring for the rest of the audience...

... but it depends also on them that this issue is duly dealt with and scrapped of any future agenda.

I've got some logical and ethical redlines... you will have peace when you cease to challenge them.

Antonio.

From: i at dario.im
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:38:59 +0100

To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
CC: jordi at soucheiron.cat

Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia

Please, stop referring to us. We are not Australia (OP of this thread).

I guess you know everything about CUP (3,48% of votes in last elections), a more-than-20-years-old grassroots and independentist catalan political party which ripped off a lot of shared voters between them and us, because we overlap in vote population/distribution and social networks. We analyzed it statistically and this is what we found (also we have shared members).

How would you win against a similar (in appearance) grassroots movement with a 20 times bigger budget (a five-zero figure) than ours, with elected representatives and majors, lots of activists and resources everywhere and a current political context* favoring independentists movements?

* For everyone who doesn't live in Catalonia: last September 11th (national catalan day) we had an independentist demonstration with about one million people (we are about seven million people). Next year (2014) it is going to be 300th anniversay of our national day and independentism is very strong (the second most voted party is independentist - 13,68% of votes).

If you dare to plot a feasible masterplan for that kind of situation, please, change the subject of this thread to "Here is the masterplan that catalan pirates should have followed" and answer my mail. If not, don't waste your time answering any mail, because you won't have a clue, and this will be my last communication about your constant rant.

Cheers!

2013/3/13 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>

Thank you.

Now, can you only imagine how everything looks like from a PP-ES point of view... and care to explain to our international audience why for Christ's sake from a PIRATE point of view the creation of a separate Pirate Party in Catalonia, and all the bullshit it has brought to the pirate situation in Spain, in Europe and in the rest of the world was so inevitable?

Hopefully, something different than plain Catalan Seny(l) like the one that has some independent Catalan Embassies disseminated throughout the world, and keeps bullying international sports federations to have independent Catalan delegations accepted at mayor sports events.

But you have experienced that blackmailing Pirate General Assemblies pays... at least temporally, so why should you not insist in Kazán?

Meanwhile, anyone for which logics and ethics have meaning... are well on their way to exile themselves from any instance where they would be forced to coexist with the contamination you represent.

Once the intelligent people are gone, of their own free and unbendable will...

... the rest can but collapse, no matter how much time it takes. It's called decadence.

Dare call yourself a Pirate... and insist.

Antonio.

Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:30:54 +0100
From: jordi at soucheiron.cat
To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net

Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia

You're right, in the last elections we didn't perform as well as we'd have liked to. But I must disagree with you about the causes of the results of the last elections. The main problem we face is not that people know our ideals and disagree with them, but the other way round: they don't know what we offer as a political party and when they do they mostly agree. What we need in order to gain relevance is a huge educational effort, most people just think that we only want free downloads from any kind of copyrighted content. Fortunately this effort is being done and day by day our ideals are starting to be known by the general public.

On the other hand youre main problem is from another completely different nature. You obviously also have the problem stated above (like many other pirate parties), but you have a very serious involvement problem. To express it in a few words: most individuals that try to make anything relevant for your party are demotivated by a very small but influential group that sabotages any action that they don't consider appropriate. This is causing the gradual dismemberment of the Spanish Pirate Party in a Confederation of Pirate Parties that has assimilated all the motivated and active individuals that the Spanish Pirate Party has rejected.

We are a small party, we are well aware of that. But we are already working to improve how things work in the local governments where we have a seat.I would please ask you to abstain writing emails without any kind of constructive critique. We are certainly aware of our weaknesses and destructive critiques like yours are only a waste of time to many of us that don't enjoy from as much free time as you seem to have.

Sincerely,Jordi Soucheiron

2013/3/13 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>

Please, care to justify to all those, mainly germans, who put all faith in you as a way to solve the Spanish conflict, and rolled out the red carpet in PPI and PP-EU...

... why you failed them so miserably in the last regional elections, not being able to perform minimally, even with >1.000 members, even in the highly concentrated and urban area of Barcelona.

A Barcelona that projects herself as cosmopolitan and geek-minded as Berlin, where the German Pirate Party started to perform extremely well recently, even if they have lost north these last months.

You do care, or do you have only vaporware on offer?

Antonio.

From: david.arcos at gmail.com
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:32:30 +0100
To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net

Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 7:10 PM, José Manuel Goig <hosemanuelgoc at gmail.com> wrote:

There is a great difference between PP-CAT and PP-ES. PP-CAT can only act in the territory of Catalonia but PP-ES can act in all of the territory of Spain, including Catalonia. So, in Catalonia both parties could stand for election at the same time competing for the same electorate. This is so because Catalonia is right now a part of Spain. Whenever Catalonia chooses to be a "sovereign state", all this will change and there will be no problem.

I'm sorry, but that's B.S. You either have no clue about the Spanish electoral law, or are trying to intoxicate.

I feel forced to quote some sources (duty calls!)

- Fact 1: in Spain, all the elections have a regional circunscription ("provincia"), except for the European elections, where the circunscription is all Spain.

Source:http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Circunscripciones#Espa.C3.B1a

> España posee 52 circunscripciones para la elección de diputados de su cámara baja: 50 provinciales y 2 pertenecientes a las ciudades de Ceuta y a Melilla.

> En las elecciones al Parlamento Europeo España tiene una única circunscripción nacional.

- Fact 2: in Spain, the only requirement are (a) providing full lists and (b) gathering signatures ("avales"). Any party (even regional parties) can run in all the country (or other regions), provided they have the signatures.

Source:http://www.portalelectoral.es/content/view/1008/122/

> (...) para poder presentar una candidatura a las elecciones al Congreso de los Diputados y al Senado, necesitan la firma, al menos, del 0,1 por ciento de los electores inscritos en el censo electoral de la circunscripción por la que pretendan su elección.

> En el caso de las elecciones al Parlamento Europeo, el artículo 220.3 de la LOREG exige para la presentación de candidaturas, como requisito común para partidos, federaciones, coaliciones electorales y agrupaciones de electores, la acreditación de las firmas de 15.000 electores.

So, legally speaking, PP-CAT:- could run for the elections outside Catalan circunscriptions

- could even run for the full Spain circunscription in the European Elections.In practice, PP-CAT:- could provide lists easily, as it has run in all the elections (4) since its creation (2 years ago).

- getting 15k signatures could be a challenge, but in the past elections we got >11k in half the time in just Catalonia (20% of Spain), so it's a reasonable assumption..

Legally speaking, PP-ES could also run for all the elections.But in practice, it has never been able to do so: didn't have enough people to make the lists, didn't have enough signatures. (The only exceptions have been some brave local groups that could provide lists and signatures, without any kind of help from PP-ES board)

With >1k members, PP-ES could barely gather 1k signatures for the last European elections. Right now, with <100 members, do you really believe it would be able to gather 15k?

Unfortunately, PP-ES is dead. it was killed by a few trolls who got a bit of power power, then managed to kick a lot of members, then climbed into higher positions, then caused a bigger exodus of members...

The internal problems in PP-ES have nothing to do with nationalisms, but with a pyramidal hierarchy, and the wrong people in the wrong positions.

Finally, there it's never been a nationalism issue. Check the Spanish map, and the pirate parties on it: http://confederacionpirata.org

All the Spanish pirate parties in the  'Confederación Pirata' are working together on campaings, and are ok with sharing a single vote in PPI.

All the nationalist/anti-catalanist conspiranoia is a ridiculous attempt to divert attemption from the important issue.

My 2 cents...

____________________________________________________
Pirate Parties International - General Talk
pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general 		 	   		  

____________________________________________________

Pirate Parties International - General Talk

pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net

http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

____________________________________________________
Pirate Parties International - General Talk
pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general 		 	   		  

____________________________________________________

Pirate Parties International - General Talk

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http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

-- 
Dario Castañéhttp://www.dario.im | http://twitter.com/im_dario

____________________________________________________
Pirate Parties International - General Talk
pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general 		 	   		  

____________________________________________________

Pirate Parties International - General Talk

pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net

http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

____________________________________________________
Pirate Parties International - General Talk
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http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general 		 	   		  
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