[pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia

Wed Mar 13 20:03:31 CET 2013

I apologise. I was sure the message was not directed to the list.

2013/3/13 Lindsay-Anne Brunner <lindsay.brunner at gmail.com>

> So close, Betiel, so close.
> On Mar 13, 2013 1:33 PM, "Betiel" <betielix at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> well. it is very boring...and has nothing in common with the ppi per se.
>> why don`t you just send the message to the person you have a problem
>> instead of us all?
>> Like I`m doing with this email.
>>
>> Betiel
>>
>>
>> 2013/3/13 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>>
>>> It's very hard to achieve... as long as you insist on being the pain in
>>> everybodies ass.
>>>
>>> And it seems you run out of rational arguments real soon and have to
>>> resort to emotional crap and populist bulshit.
>>>
>>> You can count on fingers how many times I have brought up the issue...
>>>
>>> ... I know it is very boring for the rest of the audience...
>>>
>>> ... but it depends also on them that this issue is duly dealt with and
>>> scrapped of any future agenda.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've got some logical and ethical redlines... you will have peace when
>>> you cease to challenge them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Antonio.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> From: i at dario.im
>>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:38:59 +0100
>>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> CC: jordi at soucheiron.cat
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia
>>>
>>> Please, stop referring to us. We are not Australia (OP of this thread).
>>>
>>> I guess you know everything about CUP (3,48% of votes in last
>>> elections), a more-than-20-years-old grassroots and independentist catalan
>>> political party which ripped off a lot of shared voters between them and
>>> us, because we overlap in vote population/distribution and social networks.
>>> We analyzed it statistically and this is what we found (also we have shared
>>> members).
>>>
>>> How would you win against a similar (in appearance) grassroots movement
>>> with a 20 times bigger budget (a five-zero figure) than ours, with elected
>>> representatives and majors, lots of activists and resources everywhere and
>>> a current political context* favoring independentists movements?
>>>
>>> * For everyone who doesn't live in Catalonia: last September 11th
>>> (national catalan day) we had an independentist demonstration with about
>>> one million people (we are about seven million people). Next year (2014) it
>>> is going to be 300th anniversay of our national day and independentism is
>>> very strong (the second most voted party is independentist - 13,68% of
>>> votes).
>>>
>>> If you dare to plot a feasible masterplan for that kind of situation,
>>> please, change the subject of this thread to "Here is the masterplan that
>>> catalan pirates should have followed" and answer my mail. If not, don't
>>> waste your time answering any mail, because you won't have a clue, and this
>>> will be my last communication about your constant rant.
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/3/13 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> Now, can you only imagine how everything looks like from a PP-ES point
>>> of view... and care to explain to our international audience why for
>>> Christ's sake from a PIRATE point of view the creation of a separate Pirate
>>> Party in Catalonia, and all the bullshit it has brought to the pirate
>>> situation in Spain, in Europe and in the rest of the world was so
>>> inevitable?
>>>
>>> Hopefully, something different than plain Catalan Seny(l) like the one
>>> that has some independent Catalan Embassies disseminated throughout the
>>> world, and keeps bullying international sports federations to have
>>> independent Catalan delegations accepted at mayor sports events.
>>>
>>> But you have experienced that blackmailing Pirate General Assemblies
>>> pays... at least temporally, so why should you not insist in Kazán?
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, anyone for which logics and ethics have meaning... are well
>>> on their way to exile themselves from any instance where they would be
>>> forced to coexist with the contamination you represent.
>>>
>>> Once the intelligent people are gone, of their own free and unbendable
>>> will...
>>>
>>> ... the rest can but collapse, no matter how much time it takes. It's
>>> called decadence.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dare call yourself a Pirate... and insist.
>>>
>>>
>>> Antonio.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:30:54 +0100
>>> From: jordi at soucheiron.cat
>>>
>>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia
>>>
>>> You're right, in the last elections we didn't perform as well as we'd
>>> have liked to. But I must disagree with you about the causes of the results
>>> of the last elections. The main problem we face is not that people know our
>>> ideals and disagree with them, but the other way round: they don't know
>>> what we offer as a political party and when they do they mostly agree. What
>>> we need in order to gain relevance is a huge educational effort, most
>>> people just think that we only want free downloads from any kind of
>>> copyrighted content. Fortunately this effort is being done and day by day
>>> our ideals are starting to be known by the general public.
>>> On the other hand youre main problem is from another completely
>>> different nature. You obviously also have the problem stated above (like
>>> many other pirate parties), but you have a very serious involvement
>>> problem. To express it in a few words: most individuals that try to make
>>> anything relevant for your party are demotivated by a very small but
>>> influential group that sabotages any action that they don't consider
>>> appropriate. This is causing the gradual dismemberment of the Spanish
>>> Pirate Party in a Confederation of Pirate Parties that has assimilated all
>>> the motivated and active individuals that the Spanish Pirate Party has
>>> rejected.
>>> We are a small party, we are well aware of that. But we are already
>>> working to improve how things work in the local governments where we have a
>>> seat.
>>> I would please ask you to abstain writing emails without any kind of
>>> constructive critique. We are certainly aware of our weaknesses and
>>> destructive critiques like yours are only a waste of time to many of us
>>> that don't enjoy from as much free time as you seem to have.
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Jordi Soucheiron
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/3/13 Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>>>
>>> Please, care to justify to all those, mainly germans, who put all faith
>>> in you as a way to solve the Spanish conflict, and rolled out the red
>>> carpet in PPI and PP-EU...
>>>
>>> ... why you failed them so miserably in the last regional elections, not
>>> being able to perform minimally, even with >1.000 members, even in the
>>> highly concentrated and urban area of Barcelona.
>>>
>>> A Barcelona that projects herself as cosmopolitan and geek-minded as
>>> Berlin, where the German Pirate Party started to perform extremely well
>>> recently, even if they have lost north these last months.
>>>
>>> You do care, or do you have only vaporware on offer?
>>>
>>>
>>> Antonio.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> From: david.arcos at gmail.com
>>> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:32:30 +0100
>>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Formal protest from Pirate Party Australia
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 7:10 PM, José Manuel Goig <
>>> hosemanuelgoc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a great difference between PP-CAT and PP-ES. PP-CAT can only
>>> act in the territory of Catalonia but PP-ES can act in all of the territory
>>> of Spain, including Catalonia. So, in Catalonia both parties could stand
>>> for election at the same time competing for the same electorate. This is so
>>> because Catalonia is right now a part of Spain. Whenever Catalonia chooses
>>> to be a "sovereign state", all this will change and there will be no
>>> problem.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, but that's B.S. You either have no clue about the Spanish
>>> electoral law, or are trying to intoxicate.
>>>
>>> I feel forced to quote some sources (duty calls! <http://xkcd.com/386/>)
>>>
>>>
>>> - Fact 1: in Spain, all the elections have a *regional circunscription*("provincia"), except for the European elections, where the circunscription
>>> is all Spain.
>>>
>>> Source:
>>> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Circunscripciones#Espa.C3.B1a
>>>
>>> > España posee *52 circunscripciones* para la elección de diputados de
>>> su cámara baja: 50 provinciales y 2 pertenecientes a las ciudades de Ceuta
>>> y a Melilla.
>>> > En las elecciones al *Parlamento Europeo* España tiene *una única
>>> circunscripción nacional*.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Fact 2: in Spain, the only requirement are (a) providing *full lists*and (b)
>>> *gathering signatures* ("avales"). Any party (even regional parties)
>>> can run in all the country (or other regions), provided they have the
>>> signatures.
>>>
>>> Source:
>>> http://www.portalelectoral.es/content/view/1008/122/
>>>
>>> > (...) para poder presentar una *candidatura a las elecciones* al
>>> Congreso de los Diputados y al Senado, necesitan la firma, al menos, del
>>> * 0,1 por ciento de los electores* inscritos en el censo electoral de
>>> la circunscripción por la que pretendan su elección.
>>> > En el caso de las elecciones al *Parlamento Europeo*, el artículo
>>> 220.3 de la LOREG exige para la presentación de candidaturas, como
>>> requisito común para partidos, federaciones, coaliciones electorales y
>>> agrupaciones de electores, la acreditación de las* firmas de 15.000
>>> electores*.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, legally speaking, PP-CAT:
>>> - could run for the elections outside Catalan circunscriptions
>>> - could even run for the full Spain circunscription in the European
>>> Elections.
>>> In practice, PP-CAT:
>>> - could provide lists easily, as it has run in all the elections (4)
>>> since its creation (2 years ago).
>>> - getting 15k signatures could be a challenge, but in the past elections
>>> we got >11k in half the time in just Catalonia (20% of Spain), so it's a
>>> reasonable assumption..
>>>
>>>
>>> Legally speaking, PP-ES could also run for all the elections.
>>> But in practice, it has never been able to do so: didn't have enough
>>> people to make the lists, didn't have enough signatures. (The only
>>> exceptions have been some brave local groups that could provide lists and
>>> signatures, without any kind of help from PP-ES board)
>>> With >1k members, PP-ES could barely gather 1k signatures for the last
>>> European elections. Right now, with <100 members, do you really believe it
>>> would be able to gather 15k?
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, PP-ES is dead. it was killed by a few trolls who got a
>>> bit of power power, then managed to kick a lot of members, then climbed
>>> into higher positions, then caused a bigger exodus of members...
>>> The internal problems in PP-ES have nothing to do with nationalisms, but
>>> with a pyramidal hierarchy, and the wrong people in the wrong positions.
>>>
>>>
>>> Finally, there it's never been a nationalism issue. Check the Spanish
>>> map, and the pirate parties on it: http://confederacionpirata.org
>>> All the Spanish pirate parties in the  'Confederación Pirata' are
>>> working together on campaings, and are ok with sharing a single vote in PPI.
>>>
>>> All the nationalist/anti-catalanist<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catalanism> conspiranoia is
>>> a ridiculous attempt to divert attemption from the important issue.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My 2 cents...
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
>>> International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
>>> International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dario Castañé
>>> http://www.dario.im | http://twitter.com/im_dario
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
>>> International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
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